BBO Discussion Forums: Balancing nt/ system on or off? - BBO Discussion Forums

If your pard makes a balancing nt do you play system on or off?

Is there a general expert agreement here?

(1x)=p=p=1nt
(?)=?

Transfers are extra useful after a balancing seat nt because the nt bidder usually has a stopper in opener's suit and that could very well be a positional stopper.

If you play a wide-ranging balancing nt then 2♣ should be some kind of range checking stayman, otherwise it could be a transfer to diamonds. You can then use a transfer to their suit as stayman.

Personally I just play system on, it's easier. Whether it's better, who knows...

I usually play system off (cue = stayman) on the theory that:
1. I overcall quite aggressively with 5 cd majors. So I'm rather unlikely to have 5cM + decent values in this spot. Without decent values, opps probably have at least close to half the deck and it wouldn't have been passed to partner to balance.
2. Given #1, it's probably more useful to be able to bid a minor to play.

Advantage of system-off: Partner may have a long club or diamond suit and be very weak. Now you can play in 2-minor. You can still use a cue-bid to be stayman.

Advantage of system-on: Partner may have a good hand and you need system-on to get to the right contract. This isn't too usual because he might have overcalled with a 12+ count and a suit that needs to be transferred to. If he does have a good hand, most of the time he will be long in opener's suit (the reason he didn't have a bid the first time) and will just bid 3NT anyway.
If opener has a suit that we would rather got led into than through, transfers may gain us a trick or a tempo.

Conclusion: Probably system-off is the way to go. BUT if you play system-on over a direct overcall of 1NT, you should probably play system on here as well in case somebody forgets.

 Quantumcat, on 2011-August-21, 00:54, said:

I agree that this is not usual.

 Quantumcat, on 2011-August-21, 00:54, said:

But i also think this is extremely unusual too when opener passes.

Overall i would chose the method which allows balancer to be declarer and force the opener to be on lead. Each time opener doesn't have an obvious lead, he will be shooting in the dark towards a pd who initially passed to 1 level opening and RHO bid 1 NT. I can easily sacrifice the VERY unlikely hands where pd has a VERY weak hand and LONG minor.

 MrAce, on 2011-August-21, 14:58, said:

And indeed if he is so weak opps should be balancing with 2M anyway, so we might as well transfer to the 3-level.

 mgoetze, on 2011-August-21, 15:06, said:

Yes and, he says ♣ or ♦, weak hand, long minor. Unfortunately, playing natural he will have to use cue=stayman thus he can actually play only 1 minor at 2 level when they opened 1m.

 mike777, on 2011-August-20, 16:44, said:

♥ ♥ ♥

Hello my Dear ♥,
No, not if you play according the ACBL booklet.
Don't forgot that partner is very often bidding 1NT, just to protect you.
Really there is no need for Stayman or other systems.


But again. that is the kind of sequence you need to discuss with partner !


♥ ♥ ♥

I play system off. 2C is a combination of major suit ask and range enquiry.

The discussion about 'right siding' is actually pretty irrelevant. NT contracts and 4-4 major suit fits will be played by the overcaller*
I do think a range enquiry is useful, because a protective 1NT is usually much wider range than a direct seat one, so it's nice to split it further than just have 2nd seat invite.

To be honest, the rest of it is pretty irrelevant, although obviously it's important to know what your agreement is. You won't have an invitational hand with a 5-card major because you would have overcalled. You might have a weak hand with a long suit, particularly vulnerable, and opener has a balanced 18-19 in which case it's handy to be able to pull, but right-siding is usually not that important.

99% of the time my partner bids 1NT in 4th seat and the next hand passes, I pass, invite in NT, bid game in NT, or look for a 4-4 major suit fit.


*it's actually not so obvious that you want opener on lead against 3NT because he might have a second suit to lead to his advantage. But it's too late for that anyway.

I play systems on (keeping things standard) and until I hear a convincing argument to play it off I will save the brain cells for other more frequent things, like splinters.