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A pair I know to be ethical has the following signalling system.
" If we expect partner to win the trick or when we are sure partner will win the trick we play revolving discards. However if we expect declarer to win the trick or when we are sure declarer will win the trick our discard has no significance. "
Is this legal?
Defence Signals Is random discarding allowed?
#1
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Posted 2013-April-01, 03:09
Aniruddha
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#2
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Posted 2013-April-01, 03:23
It's legal unless your regulating authority has a regulation prohibiting it, which I would think unlikely. There's the separate question of whether it's full disclosure, but so long as there's no bias to this random choice that partner's aware of, it is.
#3
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Posted 2013-April-01, 06:57
It sounds legal, although I would think they would miss some important opportunities to signal when declarer is winning the trick.
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Posted 2013-April-01, 07:05
At the weekend I had a yarborough and my signalling method was to follow suit from right to left - with the proviso that I do not sort my cards within suits.
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#5
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Posted 2013-April-01, 09:48
RMB1, on 2013-April-01, 07:05, said:
At the weekend I had a yarborough and my signalling method was to follow suit from right to left - with the proviso that I do not sort my cards within suits.
Hmm, I've generally heard the advice that the broke defender should signal count religiously. While you can't contribute much to the defense in terms of winning tricks (although you should hold onto the beer card just in case), you can still help partner count declarer's hand. Conversely, the defender with all the points should not bother giving count at all.
Since declarer doesn't know that there's such a disparity, or which is which, the accurate count signals won't help him as much.
#6
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Posted 2013-April-01, 12:03
Many regulating authorities require a signalling system to be played (although you can, and much frequently than in the bidding do, lie). They do this because people play "random discards" or "we signal rarely, but when we do it's whatever partner needs to know" - but in fact, due to partnership experience, their "random" is somewhat biased (and partner knows the bias), and when partner doesn't need to know something, there's still some information passed on (and again, partner knows the bias, but can't/won't explain it).
Having said that, what they said above.
Having said that, what they said above.
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Posted 2013-April-01, 14:37
It depends on local regulations. In the ACBL this would be illegal. The ACBL general Conditions of Contest provide: "A pair may not elect to have no agreement when it comes to carding. There have been pairs that say they just play random leads or that they lead the card closest to their thumb. They must decide on a carding agreement and mark their convention cards accordingly. Of course, some leeway needs to be given to fill-in pairs or very last minute partnerships." But you'd need to check the local regulations for the location you're interested in.
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Posted 2013-April-02, 09:25
bixby, on 2013-April-01, 14:37, said:
"...Of course, some leeway needs to be given to fill-in pairs or very last minute partnerships."
Not to mention LOLs and novices who simply don't know how to signal.
Although they probably just play the lowest card when it doesn't matter -- does that count as a "carding agreement"?
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Posted 2013-April-03, 08:56
barmar, on 2013-April-02, 09:25, said:
Not to mention LOLs and novices who simply don't know how to signal.
Although they probably just play the lowest card when it doesn't matter -- does that count as a "carding agreement"?
Although they probably just play the lowest card when it doesn't matter -- does that count as a "carding agreement"?
My local club contains a certain helping of "life novices". Many of these, when asked what signals they play, will tell you "we throw cards we don't want".
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Posted 2013-April-03, 10:10
bixby, on 2013-April-01, 14:37, said:
It depends on local regulations. In the ACBL this would be illegal. The ACBL general Conditions of Contest provide: "A pair may not elect to have no agreement when it comes to carding. There have been pairs that say they just play random leads or that they lead the card closest to their thumb. They must decide on a carding agreement and mark their convention cards accordingly.
Is "no agreement" the same as "we intentionally play random cards"? I don't think so.
(Notwithstanding that this is fertile ground for CPU's...)
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#13
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Posted 2013-April-05, 15:42
barmar, on 2013-April-01, 09:48, said:
Hmm, I've generally heard the advice that the broke defender should signal count religiously. While you can't contribute much to the defense in terms of winning tricks (although you should hold onto the beer card just in case), you can still help partner count declarer's hand. Conversely, the defender with all the points should not bother giving count at all.
Since declarer doesn't know that there's such a disparity, or which is which, the accurate count signals won't help him as much.
Since declarer doesn't know that there's such a disparity, or which is which, the accurate count signals won't help him as much.
I've heard this advice too, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to agree with my partner to do this. Would such an agreement not be caught by the restriction on "encrypted signals"?
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Posted 2013-April-10, 04:30
#15
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Posted 2013-April-10, 06:45
I thought this is just playing bridge. Encrypted? illegal? Yikes, I hope not.
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#16
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Posted 2013-April-10, 06:57
Encryption is in the eye of the beholder.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
#17
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Posted 2013-April-10, 09:34
If we agreed that after an NT action in which we can tell declarer has 24 or 25 points, if one of us held 10+ HCP they'd signal natural count, otherwise upside down, that would be an encrypted signal. Agreeing to give natural count with a bust and discard randomly with a 13 count or better is the same agreement...
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Posted 2013-April-11, 05:52
CamHenry, on 2013-April-03, 08:56, said:
My local club contains a certain helping of "life novices". Many of these, when asked what signals they play, will tell you "we throw cards we don't want".
This one of my pet hates, although when I've encountered it, it's usually phrased slightly differently (and less clearly), eg. "we throw what we don't want". This is used by players to either mean "attitude discards" or "no discard system" depending on who says it and they usually consider their chosen meaning of the explanation so obvious that any attempt to clarify causes confusion. The phrasing that they use in your club seems much more helpful though.
#19
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Posted 2013-April-11, 05:57
How is "we throw what we don't want" less clear than "we throw cards we don't want"? The only difference is "what" versus "cards", and the context makes it clear that the things we can throw are only cards.
#20
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Posted 2013-April-11, 06:12
Some players use this to mean "we throw the suit we don't want (partner to lead)". I think it's pretty ambiguous, even if you don't, which suggests that it is not a helpful explanation to give to at least some opponents. I have seen players give this explanation and found them to be playing rev att discards or similar plenty of times and think they have disclosed this.