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ATB Game not reached

Poll: ATB Game not reached (27 member(s) have cast votes)

Who is to blame?

  1. Mainly East (25 votes [92.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 92.59%

  2. Mainly West (2 votes [7.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  3. Both equally (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Neither (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

What was the the worst bid by East West

  1. DBL (1 votes [3.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

  2. 1S (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. 2S (25 votes [92.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 92.59%

  4. West final Pass (1 votes [3.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

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#21 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2014-April-29, 06:16

View Postnick jacob, on 2014-April-29, 04:46, said:

Bidding 2S just feels like playing solitaire. You have worked out in your mind what is percentage, double-dummy, and are not consulting partner on his opinion. This may involve missing game or playing the wrong partscore, and for what? Fear that 2NT/3D/3S is too high? If partner could bid 2NT I would be delighted to put this dummy down.

You misdescribe what I said.
1) I said previously that a second double is in principle more descriptive than 2, but that is unlikely to be helpful here and it has its own perils. East did not choose a second double since this was a new partnership with no agreements.
2) 2 is not solitaire. After partner's non jump 1 bid and everyone is bidding, a spade partial remains by far the most likely par contract.
2 is practical and simply trades extra HCP strength for poor distribution. No fourth spade, no singleton club and little in opponents suits, which makes notrumps an unlikely alternative.
It pays to be conservative with such holdings at matchpoints.
I readily admit I would miss 4 opposite JTxxx, Kxx Qxx xx, but to have a lot of company.
If over 2, opponents compete to 3 East has an ideal matchpoint double. This can hardly show a trump stack after a takeout double and a raise to 2.
3) If partner bids 2NT over a second double, you want to play 2NT/3D/3S?
What's the point?
That's what I meant when I claimed a second double has its own perils.
At matchpoints I much prefer to play 2 and remain convinced that 2 has a higher matchpoint expectancy than the alternate contracts you are "delighted" with.
I am pretty sure that looking for a different strain after partner bid 1 voluntarily is more likely to get you to the wrong part-score not to a better one and it will sometimes get you too high.
There is little mileage in declaring 2NT when one opponent has shown opening strength with a long suit.
Granted, we could have more trumps in a diamond partial than spades. But even if this is the case this does not mean you will score better in diamonds.
For diamonds to score better you need to bet to get at least two tricks more in a diamond partial. I bet against that outcome.
The potential 4-3 spade fit looks good to me, but then it would not occur to me to bid 1 on your second example.

Rainer Herrmann
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#22 User is offline   winkle 

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Posted 2014-April-29, 06:33

I think if east bids 2S he is masterminding. If we have the values for game and we're missing the HK it's not going to be off side.

IMO if there is downgrading to be done, it should be done by west who has a poorly placed CK. Over the X my methods allow me to bid 2 non-forcing spades by west, showing 5 spades, some values, non-forcing, so that works pretty well here. I know too much to comment on what happens after that, but that's how my auction should start.
My name is Winkle.
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#23 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2014-April-29, 07:34

View Postwinkle, on 2014-April-29, 06:33, said:

IMO if there is downgrading to be done, it should be done by west who has a poorly placed CK. Over the X my methods allow me to bid 2 non-forcing spades by west, showing 5 spades, some values, non-forcing, so that works pretty well here. I know too much to comment on what happens after that, but that's how my auction should start.

If you think 2 by West shows 5 spades you are missing the point.

West 2 says that West is minimum and not interested in game.
What else is West supposed to bid with AJxx Jxx xxx xxx ?

West actual hand J9832 Q6 Q93 KT6 is simply too strong for 2 and not suitable for 3, but he is close to maximum for his previous bid.
In a bidding panel a vast majority of experts would choose 2NT over a second double with some bidding 3NT straight away.
This would get you to a good 3NT opposite ATx Axx AKJxx Qx

Rainer Herrmann
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#24 User is offline   winkle 

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Posted 2014-April-29, 08:01

View Postrhm, on 2014-April-29, 07:34, said:

If you think 2 by West shows 5 spades you are missing the point.

West 2 says that West is minimum and not interested in game.
What else is West supposed to bid with AJxx Jxx xxx xxx ?

West actual hand J9832 Q6 Q93 KT6 is simply too strong for 2 and not suitable for 3, but he is close to maximum for his previous bid.
In a bidding panel a vast majority of experts would choose 2NT over a second double with some bidding 3NT straight away.
This would get you to a good 3NT opposite ATx Axx AKJxx Qx

Rainer Herrmann


I said *my* methods, not yours or someone else's. In any case I misspoke. 2S does not show five spades in my methods but it does show extra values and is non-forcing. To me east's double is automatic, but the continuations after that are judgement calls.
My name is Winkle.
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#25 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2014-May-07, 01:41

WEst could pick between 1 or 2, I Can live with both, but I Would rather pick 2.

Bidding 2 with 3 cards is ridicoulous, you have a bid to show extras with 3 cards, instead showing 4 cards and no extras is ludicrous.
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