Hesitation after a jump bid

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Hesitation after a jump bid

#1 steve2005

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Posted 2018-June-19, 02:56

Ok here was the bidding.
EW said there was clear hesitation on the pass by North after edit 4♠. NO STOP CARD ACBL
Clear was wrong there was at most 2 seconds of thought, After jump like this if anything the pass was too quick,

Now after the hand EW say they were damaged as N has a rockcrusher that clearly should have taken a bid. While South which i cant remember their exact hand had KQTxxx diamonds 2 small hearts 3 clubs to Q or J and singleton spade. So dont have much.

The claim is S must have UI somehow or couldn't have made 5♦ bid
Result was 5♦+1 which was lucky on 3-3 heart break but 5♦ is always there.

Should this be rolled back to 4♠?

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#2 Tramticket

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Posted 2018-June-19, 03:17

Are stop cards still in use in your jurisdiction? Was it used?

Even if stop cards are not in use, there is still a requirement to pause after a jump bid? The normal guidance is around 10 seconds - which can feel like a very long time and players rarely pause for this long. I would only entertain a claim of UI based on a break in tempo if the pause were for significantly longer than 10 seconds. You suggest that the pause was 2 seconds, which I would also consider a break in tempo (too quick) - but not a BIT that suggests bidding on.

Based on the facts as presented, I would not adjust.

#3 pescetom

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Posted 2018-June-19, 04:22

steve2005, on 2018-June-19, 02:56, said:

EW said there was clear hesitation on the pass by North after 3♠.

I assume you mean 4♠ here.

#4 Cyberyeti

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Posted 2018-June-19, 04:33

Tramticket, on 2018-June-19, 03:17, said:

Depends how long that player normally thinks for over a jump, if he normally completely ignores the stop card then it's a BiT.

#5 Tramticket

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Posted 2018-June-19, 04:56

Cyberyeti, on 2018-June-19, 04:33, said:

Depends how long that player normally thinks for over a jump, if he normally completely ignores the stop card then it's a BiT.

Yes I agree with this. Also, any mannerisms at the time might have given UI and suggested bidding on. But none of this was mentioned in the opening post, hence my response "based on the facts as presented" ...

#6 FelicityR

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Posted 2018-June-19, 06:17

steve2005, on 2018-June-19, 02:56, said:

If anything the pass was too quick

Bizarre. Quick passes usually indicate no further interest, minimum hands, etc. so bidding 5♦ as South is a gamble. Though it all depends on how 4♠ is interpreted, and the standard of the opposition. Would I bid 5♦ in this auction? No way. But I know a few players who might bid 5♦ given a 3♦ bid (free bid or gf - depending on the methods) on the previous round might have been misinterpreted.

#7 barmar

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Posted 2018-June-19, 08:33

steve2005, on 2018-June-19, 02:56, said:

Now after the hand EW say they were damaged as N has a rockcrusher that clearly should have taken a bid. While South which i cant remember their exact hand had KQTxxx diamonds 2 small hearts 3 clubs to Q or J and singleton spade. So dont have much.

1=2=6=3 shape is only 12 cards. That reduces the LTC, which suggests bidding more.

#8 pescetom

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Posted 2018-June-19, 08:48

If East (or West) thought there was clearly hesitation then he could have pointed it out at the time, when North passed. If he waits until the end of auction to say so and only his partner agrees with him then it is far from clear that he is right. Although I guess he might have hesitated to point it out at the time for fear of generating UI on his own side.

Cyberyeti, on 2018-June-19, 04:33, said:

Depends how long that player normally thinks for over a jump, if he normally completely ignores the stop card then it's a BiT.

I agree that a deviation from usual behaviour may transmit UI, but I'm not sure that technically it constitutes a BiT. If his usual behaviour is to ignore the stop card then surely he usually commits a BiT and the time he thinks he does not.

#9 steve2005

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Posted 2018-June-19, 09:34

barmar, on 2018-June-19, 08:33, said:

1=2=6=3 shape is only 12 cards. That reduces the LTC, which suggests bidding more.

cant remember hand exactly either had extra club or extra spade. Stop card not used in acbl

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#10 blackshoe

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Posted 2018-June-19, 20:22

People keep talking about stop cards. This was ACBL. No stop cards (but LHO of a skip bidder is still required to pause about ten seconds).

I would want to see the hands before ruling. And when, exactly, did East point out the alleged BIT?

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#11 weejonnie

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Posted 2018-June-20, 08:54

If the claim is "S must have UI somehow or couldn't have made 5♦ bid" I am throwing it out in about -7 seconds.

The law states:(16B)

3. When a player has substantial reason to believe that an opponent who had a logical
alternative has chosen an action suggested by such information, he should summon the
Director when play ends5.

IMHO this is not a substantial reason.

No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.

#12 barmar

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Posted 2018-June-20, 08:55

blackshoe, on 2018-June-19, 20:22, said:

People keep talking about stop cards. This was ACBL. No stop cards

I think that was edited into the OP after people brought up the stop card. I don't think it originally mentioned ACBL.

#13 blackshoe

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Posted 2018-June-20, 15:24

barmar, on 2018-June-20, 08:55, said:

I think that was edited into the OP after people brought up the stop card. I don't think it originally mentioned ACBL.

Maybe not, but the profile information listed under his name in that post lists his location as Hamilton, Canada. Hence, ACBL. Remember, bridge is a game of logic. :-)

#14 Tramticket

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Posted 2018-June-21, 01:50

blackshoe, on 2018-June-20, 15:24, said:

Maybe not, but the profile information listed under his name in that post lists his location as Hamilton, Canada. Hence, ACBL. Remember, bridge is a game of logic. :-)

I am not familiar with bridge in Canada and was not aware that it was part of the ACBL - which I assumed to be just USA. I simply asked the question: "Are stop cards still in use in your jurisdiction? Was it used?" - which I felt was a reasonable question to ask.

For my interest, why are Canada part of the ACBL?

#15 pescetom

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Posted 2018-June-21, 04:38

Tramticket, on 2018-June-21, 01:50, said:

For my interest, why are Canada part of the ACBL?

I see that Mexico and Puerto Rico are in there too, not Cuba however:

ACBL world

Mexico is rather oddly linked to "most of Texas".

#16 RMB1

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Posted 2018-June-21, 04:51

Tramticket, on 2018-June-21, 01:50, said:

For my interest, why are Canada part of the ACBL?

The ACBL is primarily the zonal body for North America (as in half the continent of the Americas), the equivalent of the European Bridge League.

ACBL also has a role as the National Bridge Organisation for the USA, although there are other bodies, and USBF organises selection of USA teams.

There are National Bridge Organisations in Canada and Mexico - at least for the purposes of selecting teams.

Robin

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#17 Tramticket

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Posted 2018-June-21, 05:05

pescetom, on 2018-June-21, 04:38, said:

I see that Mexico and Puerto Rico are in there too, not Cuba however:

ACBL world

Mexico is rather oddly linked to "most of Texas".

RMB1, on 2018-June-21, 04:51, said:

Thanks - I've learnt something!

#18 barmar

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Posted 2018-June-21, 08:20

pescetom, on 2018-June-21, 04:38, said:

I see that Mexico and Puerto Rico are in there too, not Cuba however:

Even if ACBL were just for the US, PR is part of the US (a fact that the rest of the US was reminded of after last year's hurricanes).

#19 steve2005

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Posted 2018-June-21, 08:52

Tramticket, on 2018-June-21, 01:50, said:

For my interest, why are Canada part of the ACBL?

Canada Mexico and Bermuda are part of the ACBL.
In past have even fielded a joint team for Burmuda bowl but not for a while. why this is so iis more difficult.

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#20 steve2005

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Posted 2018-June-21, 13:36

from the director
" I took the hesitation problem to 3 director's and the ACBL help desk.Although there is supposed to be a delay in bidding after a jump there was agreement that a change in tempo is sufficient to consider the bidding after the change in tempo." So they looked at the bidding most players would not make the bid made which is agreed but...
Does this override 16BaSays cant make a call that is demonstrably suggest by the ui
So before you even poll you need to show bid was suggested by tempo. Quick bids mean min hands and suggest a pass.

Sarcasm is a state of mind

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BBO Discussion Forums: Hesitation after a jump bid - BBO Discussion Forums

Hesitation after a jump bid

#1 steve2005

#2 Tramticket

#3 pescetom

#4 Cyberyeti

#5 Tramticket

#6 FelicityR

#7 barmar

#8 pescetom

#9 steve2005

#10 blackshoe

#11 weejonnie

#12 barmar

#13 blackshoe

#14 Tramticket

#15 pescetom

#16 RMB1

#17 Tramticket

#18 barmar

#19 steve2005

#20 steve2005

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