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. With a balanced 13, on which I would have simply raised to 3NT, much less so 
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Pay Attention Partner! UI or not UI
#21
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Posted 2013-March-30, 17:21
When partner opens a strong no trump out of turn, you know that he is going to correct it to 3NT exactly 100% of the time. If I had a balanced 3-count, I would be this annoyed - . With a balanced 13, on which I would have simply raised to 3NT, much less so .
. With a balanced 13, on which I would have simply raised to 3NT, much less so .
#22
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Posted 2013-March-30, 19:35
aguahombre, on 2013-March-30, 14:50, said:
Anyone remember the Ron Andersen story? He was known for reading opponents' tells. In 4th chair, he opened 2NT when it was lefty's deal. The bidding reverted to Lefty, who passed his 19-count as dealer, and after two more passes, Ron folded up his garbage hand (less than 6 pts).
Anyway, it has been told so many times it might be true.
Anyway, it has been told so many times it might be true.
If I had written the rules, Anderson would have to repeat his COOT when the auction came around to him <g>.
#23
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Posted 2013-March-30, 19:30
This posting in the future is becoming a real epidemic!
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
#24
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Posted 2013-March-31, 12:15
aguahombre, on 2013-March-30, 14:50, said:
Anyone remember the Ron Andersen story? He was known for reading opponents' tells. In 4th chair, he opened 2NT when it was lefty's deal. The bidding reverted to Lefty, who passed his 19-count as dealer, and after two more passes, Ron folded up his garbage hand (less than 6 pts).
Anyway, it has been told so many times it might be true.
Anyway, it has been told so many times it might be true.
Quote
Law 72B1: A player must not infringe a law intentionally, even if there is a prescribed rectification he is willing to accept.
Law 17B: The player designated by the board as dealer makes the first call.
Law 17B: The player designated by the board as dealer makes the first call.
It's possible that these laws were not in force when this incident allegedly took place, but if they were do you think Ron Andersen would have violated them deliberately?
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#25
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Posted 2013-March-31, 12:28
This story was from some 40+ years ago, and all I do know ---being old myself, is that he knew the laws backwards and forward...and also that he was a very colorful player whom you either liked a lot or disliked a lot. It might even be possible that 72B1 had Ron in mind 
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#26
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Posted 2013-March-31, 13:59
lalldonn, on 2013-March-30, 11:15, said:
No UI, pointing out an irregularity doesn't suggest anything about your hand. Many/most people would point it out without even thinking about what they hold. I'm surprised to see anyone feels differently.
The issue isn't that they pointed out the irregularity, it's the manner in which they did it. A simple, calm "It's not your turn" doesn't suggest much, but an annoyed "Pay attention, partner!" might indicate that they have a hand that really wanted to open.
#27
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Posted 2013-March-31, 15:46
barmar, on 2013-March-31, 13:59, said:
The issue isn't that they pointed out the irregularity, it's the manner in which they did it. A simple, calm "It's not your turn" doesn't suggest much, but an annoyed "Pay attention, partner!" might indicate that they have a hand that really wanted to open.
I really don't see how it indicates anything at all about South's hand. As others have pointed out, North, knowing that South is barred, is highly likely to bid 3NT at his proper turn. So if we were to psychoanalyze South's comment and try to infer what his annoyance shows about his hand, the last thing we would expect is for South to have a hand that would simply respond 3NT to a 1NT opener anyway -- which is what he has (assuming that, like me, he wouldn't bother with Stayman when he's 4-3-3-3). So we might think that South is upset because he has a 3-count and foresees that the likely 3NT contract will fail, or that he has 19 and regrets missing a cold slam. Or maybe he has a distributional hand and wants to transfer. But the one thing we wouldn't guess is what he actually has.
Result stands.
#28
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Posted 2013-March-31, 16:32
Bixby has good points, as do all who say we cannot infer anything from the annoyance.
But, let's nail em anyway for doing it
But, let's nail em anyway for doing it
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#29
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Posted 2013-March-31, 22:20
aguahombre, on 2013-March-30, 14:50, said:
Anyone remember the Ron Andersen story? He was known for reading opponents' tells. In 4th chair, he opened 2NT when it was lefty's deal. The bidding reverted to Lefty, who passed his 19-count as dealer, and after two more passes, Ron folded up his garbage hand (less than 6 pts).
Anyway, it has been told so many times it might be true.
Anyway, it has been told so many times it might be true.
It's definitely true - Ron used to tell it with much delight, and much more embellishment too - first he opened 2NT, then the Director came and told him he was out of turn, so he tried opening 2NT again, then I've forgotten the rest, only that it always had his auditors rolling on the floor, and the eventual result was as you stated.
Jan Martel, who should probably state that she is not speaking on behalf of the USBF, the ACBL, the WBF Systems Committee, or any member of any Systems Committee or Laws Commission.
#30
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Posted 2013-April-01, 06:33
The Anderson story is funny, but I am not understanding why his lefty didn't simply accept the 2NT call and double it.
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
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#31
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Posted 2013-April-01, 09:12
billw55, on 2013-April-01, 06:33, said:
The Anderson story is funny, but I am not understanding why his lefty didn't simply accept the 2NT call and double it.
Because he thought he would get to double 3NT?
"What's the big rebid problem? After 1♦ - 1♠, I can rebid 1NT, 2♠, or 2♦."
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#32
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Posted 2013-April-01, 09:14
billw55, on 2013-April-01, 06:33, said:
The Anderson story is funny, but I am not understanding why his lefty didn't simply accept the 2NT call and double it.
Probably LHO was one of those fancy players who thinks double shows a minor and a major
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#33
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Posted 2013-April-01, 09:30
I said he knew the rules thoroughly, back then. I didn't study them as well. Do we know whether LHO was even allowed to accept?
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#34
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Posted 2013-April-01, 11:08
Pass is insane. 1NT is more reasonable, especially at MPs, where +150, especially when I can play better than the room, may score well even if some do get to game, and +120 might win us the board, too - +anything might win us the board.
If East is looking to get North to pass that hand knowing partner has 0-25 for his pass, given that he wouldn't knowing that partner has 0-10 for his pass, East is reaching.
Having said that, I would try as TD to find out whether the method of pointing out the irregularity was unusual, or for what reasons it likely was to come out this way. If I am convinced that it is reasonable to believe that the outburst demonstrably suggested strength (as opposed to North being more-than-usually unaware today, say like me in Everett, where I revoked twice in one session and missed partner's count signal on a third hand) then yes, maybe +150. But I'm betting against it, pending the investigation.
If East is looking to get North to pass that hand knowing partner has 0-25 for his pass, given that he wouldn't knowing that partner has 0-10 for his pass, East is reaching.
Having said that, I would try as TD to find out whether the method of pointing out the irregularity was unusual, or for what reasons it likely was to come out this way. If I am convinced that it is reasonable to believe that the outburst demonstrably suggested strength (as opposed to North being more-than-usually unaware today, say like me in Everett, where I revoked twice in one session and missed partner's count signal on a third hand) then yes, maybe +150. But I'm betting against it, pending the investigation.
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#35
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Posted 2013-April-01, 12:35
cherdano, on 2013-April-01, 09:14, said:
Probably LHO was one of those fancy players who thinks double shows a minor and a major
As I recall the story, it happened at a Sectional or Regional in Nebraska and LHO was the classic LOL.
Jan Martel, who should probably state that she is not speaking on behalf of the USBF, the ACBL, the WBF Systems Committee, or any member of any Systems Committee or Laws Commission.
#36
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Posted 2013-April-01, 13:28
aguahombre, on 2013-April-01, 09:30, said:
I said he knew the rules thoroughly, back then. I didn't study them as well. Do we know whether LHO was even allowed to accept?
Under the laws of 1933 and 1935 LHO could accept the call out of turn by calling before any attention had been drawn to the irregularity. In that case the auction continued without any penalty.
Once attention was called to a bid out of turn at the offender's partner's turn to call this illegal bid was void, the turn to call was given to offender's RHO and offender's partner was barred from any further participation in the auction on that board.
This law was changed in (either 1943 or) 1949.
#37
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Posted 2013-April-01, 14:13
Sounds good, but I am not sure why it reverted to the RHO when the LHO was dealer and no one except the offender had acted. What were the changes in the 40's, and were they in effect in the 70's?
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#38
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Posted 2013-April-01, 17:12
aguahombre, on 2013-April-01, 14:13, said:
Sounds good, but I am not sure why it reverted to the RHO when the LHO was dealer and no one except the offender had acted. What were the changes in the 40's, and were they in effect in the 70's?
I didn't bother to quote the complete law on calls out of turn so I limited myself to the specific case of a bid at partner's turn to call. Overlooking that it was LHO's turn to call I should have written that the auction reverted to him (LHO). (The offender's partner was still barred from further participation in the auction.)
The laws on calls out of turn have always been rather complicated (for good reasons!) so if you are really interested I suggest that you search for the relevant versions. The preface in the laws specify when revisions were made.
(The major change in the forties seems to have been that offender's LHO became allowed to call after attention was drawn to the irregularity but before any ruling was made, thereby accepting the call out of turn.)
#39
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Posted 2013-April-01, 21:59
aguahombre, on 2013-March-30, 14:50, said:
Anyone remember the Ron Andersen story? He was known for reading opponents' tells. In 4th chair, he opened 2NT when it was lefty's deal. The bidding reverted to Lefty, who passed his 19-count as dealer, and after two more passes, Ron folded up his garbage hand (less than 6 pts). Anyway, it has been told so many times it might be true.
#40
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Posted 2013-April-02, 00:57
nige1, on 2013-April-01, 21:59, said:
A slander on the deceased?
Do you really have Jan Martel blocked, or do you just not know that when we repeat a story which the subject himself told it is not slander? Or libel because we wrote it.
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