BBO Discussion Forums: captain shows shortness - BBO Discussion Forums

awm answered some questions I had about how in Imprecision the captain hand is able to show shortness. I tried saving the conversation for later review but it wouldn't copy.

My recollection is that captain can show shortness after the slave hand starts to pattern but before it has completed pattern. He can only show shortness in the two longest suits. The first step would be for the longer suit and the second step would be for the shorter (I imagine equal length tie goes to the higher ranking suit).

So this asks QPs only outside of this suit...which suggests opener has a void. Question though (which I may have asked before)...isn't it better to ask QPS including the ace of that suit and assume opener has a singleton?

Also, I think I understand this for 2-suited hands but can opener possibly have more than one opportunity to show shortness? Let's say responder shows a 5422 at the point of 3C. Does opener's 3H show spade shortness?

For 3-suited hands, doesn't it make sense for opener to show shortness in each of those 3 suits?

For 1-suited hand, perhaps shortness in only that one suit?

For balanced hands, shortness in all 4 suits?

So after responder shows QPs outside of that suit (possibly including the ace of that suit depending on whether opener is showing a void or singleton) and responder shows QPs...I assume that he starts with his normal base...which for Imprecision is 2 QPs. Then he completes pattern and flows into Parity Cue bidding.

So responder has let's say x AKxx xxx xxxxx

The bidding goes...

1C-2D 16+, 4H/5C
2H-2N GF, higher short
3D-4D club short, 5 QPs
4H-4S ask, 1435
4N-5C ask, even heart
5D-5H ask, even diamond
5S-?

I'm lost. Do we scan the clubs at any point? We are up so high now.

Could we have shown shortness after full pattern is known?

1C-2D
2H-3D 3415
3S now shows club shortness?

Interested in what others are doing, too.

So I've come up with this....

After we are in a GF relay auction at any point before QPs have been shown, captain may show shortness in any suit. At that point, no further distributional information from the slave hand will be obtained. Instead, QPs are shown including those for the ace of captain's short suit. Something below base should be used. For example, if base is 2 QPs, the slave hand's first step might show 0 QPs (two below base) and then each step would show one more.

After QPs are shown, captain asks whether the ace of his short suit is held. With the ace, the slave hand stops. This is often the worst response (captain may have a void but even with a singleton those 3 QPs might be more useful elsewhere). After this question regarding that specific ace is asked, we flow into parity cue bidding.

As far as showing which particular shortness he has, captain uses slave's longest suit first, then second, ties going to higher ranking. For balanced hands with no length information, we assume S,H,D,C.

There are several things you are missing about our actual methods. In particular:

1. When relayer shows shortness, we don't immediately jump to QP. We continue to show shape. So in the auction you gave, the sequence would go:

1♣ - 2♦ (strong, hearts and clubs)
2♥ - 2NT (GF relay, high shortage)
3♦ - 3♥ (short clubs, 1435)
3♠ - 4♠ (ask QP excluding ♣KQ, five)

2. Due to the above, relayer has many chances to sign off rather than ask for RP. The normal signoff sequences of 3NT (to play) and 4♦ (puppet to 4♥) are still available after pattern is shown. These are now conditional signoffs, such that describer is supposed to pull with weakness in the short suit (in the case of 3NT) or with maximum QP outside the shortage (in the case of 4♦). In effect opener's choice to ask for QP via 3♠ in the auction above (rather than bid 4♦ to start a signoff) is an indication that he is willing to play slam opposite at least some hands with 4 QP outside clubs (else he would bid 4♦ and describer would bid past 4♥ with 5-6 QP outside clubs). This means it's not a big deal to be "really high" here because we are virtually guaranteed to be slam-going.

3. In fact relayer rarely has to ask for the exact location of honors in these sequences. With the short suit already excluded usually a count of QP is enough to make a slam decision.

4. We don't exclude the ace of the short suit from the QP ask. However, opener can skip a step instead of asking for QP such as:

1♣ - 2♦ (strong, hearts and clubs)
2♥ - 2NT (GF relay, high shortage)
3♦ - 3♥ (short clubs, 1435)
4♣? (void clubs ask controls outside clubs)

This void-showing asking bid takes the place of our usual relay break (which asks controls outside some particular suit).

5. We use relay breaks after pattern has been shown but below 3NT as stopper asks. So 1♣-2♦-2♥-2NT-3♣-3♦-3♠ asks for diamond help.

6. The original idea behind these asks was to have opener show shortness in the "suit just shown" such that breaking relays at different points would show different shortage. So for example you could have 1♣-1♥ (spades)-1NT (short spades) or 1♣-1♥ (spades)-1♠ (relay)-2♣ (diamonds)-2♥ (short diamonds). However, this only works in a system with GF relay responses; for us we need the first relay break to show a minimum opener so we rarely have more than one chance to use the shortness showing relay break. With that said, I have found that this shortness showing break is surprisingly rarely needed (i.e. usually I reach the same contract without it).

 awm, on 2013-May-01, 19:36, said:

All of this sounds very good, except:

 awm, on 2013-May-01, 19:36, said:

Here you chose a rather specific example. If Responder's bid had been 3♠ then there is no stopper ask. It would be really nice if 3♠ over 2NT asked for a spade stopper, though.

Overall these relay breaks are excellent though, the best I think I have seen since they combine shortage showing, stopper asking and slam investigations in a logical arrangement.

Quote

FWIW, I use the following set of low level relay breaks playing MOSCITO

1. If relay responder has shown a single suited hand, the initial relay break shows shortage in the long suit
2. If relay responder has shown a two suited hand, the initial relay break shows length in the remaining two suits
3. If relay responder has shown a balanced hand, the initial relay break shows a balanced hand

The first two relay breaks are geared towards discovering misfits and signing off in 3NT
The last is used to limit strength

I appreciate all the responses.

I'm wondering if there's a way to trade space used for finding partner's pattern for finding out important card information.

Say I have AQxxxx AQx void AQxx. Let's say pd shows a balanced hand...or even a 3-suited hand short hearts. I'm most likely to want to find out the SK, HK, CK. Sure, clubs may play better some of the time, but I think that the specific card information is going to be more important than complete pattern information.

Anyone interested in looking at this?

I'm thinking...opener breaks to show short diamonds and responder's S1 shows the diamond ace. Without that ace he shows QPs at S2, S3 and so on with some predetermined base. Then PCB.

So say responder has Kx Kxxx xxxx Kxx

In Imprecision it might go...

1C-1S
2C-2D relay, bal
2N-3N diamond short, no DA but 6 QPs
7S

Not the best example as the 13th trick is not assured here and complete pattern would help, but hopefully it shows how arguably the more relevant information is obtained first.

Btw, question for awm. After your captain shows shortness and then makes the terminator puppet, do relays continue when responder wants to override? Like how many QPs would 4S show as opposed to 4N and so on?