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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#4901 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-February-23, 14:40

View Postmike777, on 2017-February-23, 13:08, said:

Vouchers did not hurt student learning, poor schools or poor teachers hurt student learning....

The whole assumption behind the voucher programs is that private schools usually provide better education than public schools. While there are almost certainly exceptions, the only way they could be the cause of the study result is if a significant number of voucher participants chose those bad schools. Is that really likely?

The article did mention that some of the better schools didn't accept voucher students, so possibly the only schools they could go to were at the bottom of the barrel. But again going back to the basic assumption, the worst private schools are probably not much worse than public schools. And many of the students we're talking about were coming from low-ranking public schools (families in affluent communities with good public schools can either afford to pay for private school or don't see the need for it) -- how likely is it that a poor private school is far worse than one of the worst public schools?

My guess is that the cause is related to the fact that the voucher students don't fit in at the public schools. A school is not just an educational institution, it's also a social environment. The experience of voucher students is probably similar to those of forced bussing after desegregation. The rich kids probably ostracize the poor ones who are there on vouchers; even if it's not overt taunting or bullying (but I'll bet there's plenty of this), the new kids probably have a hard time making friends. And educationally, the voucher kids probably need to work harder to get caught up, possibly needing remedial classes to fill in the gaps in their earlier education.

#4902 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2017-February-23, 15:30

View Postbarmar, on 2017-February-23, 14:40, said:

The whole assumption behind the voucher programs is that private schools usually provide better education than public schools. While there are almost certainly exceptions, the only way they could be the cause of the study result is if a significant number of voucher participants chose those bad schools. Is that really likely?

The article did mention that some of the better schools didn't accept voucher students, so possibly the only schools they could go to were at the bottom of the barrel. But again going back to the basic assumption, the worst private schools are probably not much worse than public schools. And many of the students we're talking about were coming from low-ranking public schools (families in affluent communities with good public schools can either afford to pay for private school or don't see the need for it) -- how likely is it that a poor private school is far worse than one of the worst public schools?

My guess is that the cause is related to the fact that the voucher students don't fit in at the public schools. A school is not just an educational institution, it's also a social environment. The experience of voucher students is probably similar to those of forced bussing after desegregation. The rich kids probably ostracize the poor ones who are there on vouchers; even if it's not overt taunting or bullying (but I'll bet there's plenty of this), the new kids probably have a hard time making friends. And educationally, the voucher kids probably need to work harder to get caught up, possibly needing remedial classes to fill in the gaps in their earlier education.


NO to your first sentence so the rest does not really follow.

However you point out something which I have briefly discussed before. While everyone may say that education is the priority of schools, that may not in fact be true. The priority might be jobs or pensions, sports or babysitting...if the kids also get an education....great....


In any event if your local school fits your kid better for whatever reasons than some private or charter school, great don't move the kid don't blame voucher.

Now if all of the kids move and take the money to the new school, the old school may very well end up being destroyed along with the teaching jobs....that is how it is suppose to work but many hate that.
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#4903 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-February-23, 17:46

View Postmike777, on 2017-February-23, 15:30, said:

While everyone may say that education is the priority of schools, that may not in fact be true.

Wow. What do you base this on? How many teachers do you have among your close friends and family?
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#4904 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-February-23, 17:54

View Postbarmar, on 2017-February-23, 09:56, said:

I've noticed that in a number of interviews with various reporters and policy experts, a common phrase to describe the new National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster is that he "doesn't suffer fools easily". How does anyone expect someone like that to work successfully with his new boss?


Maybe he doesn't consider his boss a fool?
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#4905 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-February-23, 18:41

View Postldrews, on 2017-February-23, 17:54, said:

Maybe he doesn't consider his boss a fool?

Maybe he considers him a toddler instead - at least, that's how Trump's campaign and White House staff seem to think of him.

Quote

The key to keeping Trump’s Twitter habit under control, according to six former campaign officials, is to ensure that his personal media consumption includes a steady stream of praise. And when no such praise was to be found, staff would turn to friendly outlets to drum some up — and make sure it made its way to Trump’s desk.

...

The in-person touch is also important to keeping Trump from running too hot. One Trump associate said it’s important to show Trump deference and offer him praise and respect, as that will lead him to more often listen. And if Trump becomes obsessed with a grudge, aides need to try and change the subject, friends say. Leaving him alone for several hours can prove damaging, because he consumes too much television and gripes to people outside the White House.


http://www.politico....-staffer-235263
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#4906 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-February-23, 19:20

View Postbarmar, on 2017-February-22, 10:08, said:

ldrews is a troll, you're taking the bait.


I find this post quite remarkable - if I were admin of a forum and decided someone is a troll, I'd ban them right away. Or I wouldn't say anything. Calling them a troll and not doing anything about it...

(FWIW I disagree - I do think ldrews is fairly genuine, just totally misguided, in his posts.)
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#4907 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2017-February-23, 20:43

View Postbarmar, on 2017-February-23, 09:56, said:

I've noticed that in a number of interviews with various reporters and policy experts, a common phrase to describe the new National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster is that he "doesn't suffer fools easily". How does anyone expect someone like that to work successfully with his new boss?

McMaster is a solid pick. He will focus on doing his job well which is to understand what our real security priorities are and keep on top of stuff that affects policy and operational decision making by creating an effective network with other security entities whose respect he has and Flynn didn't have. He will not sit on the sidelines as Condoleeaza Rice did if some White House insider decides to dup the Secretary of State into making a speech based on fake intelligence about WMDs and he will not let himself be distracted by guys like Steve Bannon. The guy is a pro. Good move by Trump.
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#4908 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2017-February-23, 23:11

From What Orwell would have made of Donald Trump by Philip Stephens, Chief Political Commentator, Financial Times

Quote

The Munich Security Conference used to be the place where western leaders talked about bad and dangerous things happening elsewhere in the world. This year the conversation was all about bad and dangerous things imperilling democracy at home. Donald Trump topped everyone’s threat list. The Europeans were alarmed by the US president’s opening weeks; the Americans promised to do their best to hold him in check.

Some things do not change. Sergei Lavrov, the veteran Russian foreign minister, turned up to deliver his ritual charge of Nato perfidy. The Kremlin, though, has lost some spring from its step since Russophile-leaning Michael Flynn was forced out as Mr Trump’s national security adviser. The terrible conflict in Syria had western heads shaking in knowing powerlessness. Many warned of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s revanchist ambitions.

As for Mr Trump, stories abounded of a dysfunctional administration, eccentric working habits and power struggles between inner circle ideologues and the president’s more orthodox cabinet choices. Everyone despaired of the vanishing border between truth and lies.

The Republican contingent, led by Senator John McCain, predicted bruising encounters ahead. Mike Pence, the vice-president, pulled off, just, the feat of sounding loyal to Mr Trump while discarding his foreign policy.

The really gloomy talk, though, was not so much about the fact of Mr Trump as about the fact that voters had put him in the White House. Like demagogues through time, he had seized the opportunity presented by a deeper malaise.

The political classes are some way off an agreed diagnosis of this sickness, let alone a prescription for its cure. Sure, the Republican establishment’s “containment strategy” could blunt the worst instincts of the president, but what then for his “movement”? These days, the dispossessed carry automatic weapons in preference to pitchforks.

In any event, the insurgency is not confined to the US. It played a part in Britain’s vote on the EU referendum. It is fuelling far-right nationalism across Europe. If events go badly wrong, it could put Marine Le Pen, the leader of France’s xenophobic National Front, into the Elysée Palace. The French presidential contest will probably be the most consequential political event of 2017. Mr Trump’s disdain for the Atlantic community’s postwar architecture is worrying. Ms Le Pen would tear it down.

What has happened is that large segments of the population have withdrawn their consent for the democratic order. For 70 years the political argument in liberal democracies has been largely about “means”. Right and left could disagree, often angrily, about the distribution of power, the relationship between the state and the individual, and the pace of societal change, but they signed up to essentially the same pluralist framework.

The populists have upturned the debate: now it is about the “ends”. Mr Trump, spurred by his White House strategic adviser Stephen Bannon, imagines an entirely different order — one that is robustly nationalist and protectionist and guards the privileges of the native, white, Christian majority. The values of the old order — human dignity, pluralism, the role of law, protection for minorities — have no place in this identity politics. Nor do the institutions of democracy. Judges, media and the rest are “enemies of the people”.

An “America first” foreign policy is part of the same construct. Mr Bannon, the ideologue who informs Mr Trump’s impulses, anticipates a civilisational clash with Islam and a war with China. The flirtation with Mr Putin is about confessional and cultural solidarity against an imagined barbarian threat.

Why now? Everyone has their own explanation as to why the Trumps and Le Pens have succeeded where others have failed to tap into the anger and anxieties of so many. Stagnating incomes, hubristic elites, post-crash austerity, the insecurities thrown up by technology and globalisation, the cultural shocks of migration — all played a part. I am not sure they explain the striking energy of the insurgents.

This is about more than flat living standards and rising migration. The other day a German friend recalled the 1930s, and reminded me of George Orwell’s review of Hitler’s Mein Kampf. Writing in 1940, Orwell reflected on the complacency of that era’s progressives. The ruling assumption had been that material welfare — the greatest happiness of the greatest number — would safeguard the prevailing order.

But, in Orwell’s words, “human beings don’t only want comfort, safety, short working hours, hygiene, birth control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades”. It helps, he might have added, if the promised struggle is rooted in identity, with “the other” — be they Jews or Muslims — the enemy.

Nazism and Fascism, Orwell was saying, had caught a psychological current. Emotions elbowed aside economic calculation. Something similar is happening today if not, thankfully, on the same level of evil delusion.

For Orwell’s generation the only answer was to fight for its values. Perhaps there is a message here too for all the liberals who have blithely assumed these past few decades that it was enough to declare the end of history.

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#4909 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2017-February-23, 23:27

View Posthelene_t, on 2017-February-23, 17:46, said:

Wow. What do you base this on? How many teachers do you have among your close friends and family?


many my mom in Chicago....but if you need more I have more many more
see my dad...see my uncle...if not enough I can give you more cites.


not sure why you even think this is a question based on evidence on your evidence here in the usa
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#4910 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2017-February-23, 23:43

View Posty66, on 2017-February-23, 23:11, said:

From What Orwell would have made of Donald Trump by Philip Stephens, Chief Political Commentator, Financial Times



wow trump tops everyone threat list....

again why do you keep posting crap ...piece of crap articles....pls stop and give it a little thought.


btw for what it worth I did not vote for trump....in fact I called him a name


This year the conversation was all about bad and dangerous things imperilling democracy at home. Donald Trump topped everyone’s threat list. The Europeans were alarmed by the US president’s


If we follow this guys logic Putin is a kitten

this guy is orwells nightmare..point after point...points to stephens as the nightmare
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#4911 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 08:17

View Postcherdano, on 2017-February-23, 19:20, said:

I find this post quite remarkable - if I were admin of a forum and decided someone is a troll, I'd ban them right away. Or I wouldn't say anything. Calling them a troll and not doing anything about it...
(FWIW I disagree - I do think ldrews is fairly genuine, just totally misguided, in his posts.)
If a moderator agrees with you, then you're free to spew venom.
Before a moderator bans you as a troll, however, he must disagree with you. I think Barmar disagrees with LDrews but is too fair-minded to ban him. :)
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#4912 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 09:25

View Postnige1, on 2017-February-24, 08:17, said:

If a moderator agrees with you, then you're free to spew venom.
Before a moderator bans you as a troll, he must disagree with you. I think Barmar disagrees with LDrews but is too fair-minded to ban him. :)

We have a very liberal policy in the WC. And in religious/political threads, there's a very fuzzy line between trolling and disagreeing.

I also don't think trolling should be a bannable offense. It's annoying, but not abusive. I consider hrothgar's language when he responds to be worse. I also thought I might have been doing him a favor by pointing out that he'd fallen into the trap of feeding the troll.

#4913 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 09:26

View Postmike777, on 2017-February-23, 15:30, said:

NO to your first sentence so the rest does not really follow.

Then what is the point of vouchers?

#4914 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 10:35

View Postbarmar, on 2017-February-24, 09:25, said:

We have a very liberal policy in the WC. And in religious/political threads, there's a very fuzzy line between trolling and disagreeing.

I also don't think trolling should be a bannable offense. It's annoying, but not abusive. I consider hrothgar's language when he responds to be worse. I also thought I might have been doing him a favor by pointing out that he'd fallen into the trap of feeding the troll.
Fair enough :)
Cherdano's arguments usually seem reasonable. :)
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#4915 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 12:19

View Postnige1, on 2017-February-24, 10:35, said:

Fair enough :)
Cherdano's arguments usually seem reasonable to me :)

POTY
Anyone that has and defends a position is considered a troll?
Vulgar language and personal attacks are what need to be limited but since the main source of such infantile bad-behavior will hopefully be absent longer than the last one to take a break.....the problem may have solved itself ;)
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#4916 User is offline   PassedOut 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 12:43

The Guardian has a piece today about the plight of US factory workers: 'I was naive': after losing healthcare battle, factory workers fear next blow

Quote

Hard by the Hudson river about 14 miles north of Albany, the sprawling Momentive Performance Materials factory in Waterford has supplied generations of upstate New Yorkers with secure, well-paid, blue-collar jobs. Jobs that the US, and much of the industrialized world, has been losing and whose loss has set off a political time bomb. Now Momentive workers fear those jobs are gone.

Workers went on strike at Momentive last November hoping to fight off a new contract that would have slashed their healthcare and retirement benefits. The industrial action started in the white-hot heat of the election, and many of Momentive’s workers voted for Donald Trump, whose appeal to blue-collar workers helped Trump comfortably beat Hillary Clinton in Saratoga County, Waterford’s district.

The plant has another tie to Trump. Since it was sold by General Electric in 2006, one of its major investors has been Blackstone, the private equity firm run by Stephen Schwarzman, Donald Trump’s billionaire “jobs czar”. He is one of six billionaires – including the largest shareholder, Leon Black of Apollo Global – listed as Momentive backers. Between them they have a personal fortune of $24.6bn.

“I would pray to God that Donald Trump would reconsider what he is doing and have a talk with some of these people, especially Mr Schwarzman, about what is going on here in Waterford,” Dominick Patrignani, president of the IUE/CWA Local 81359 union, told the Times Union as negotiations unfolded. “We are extremely concerned with the loss of jobs, and this guy is supposed to be the new czar of job creation and growth.”

Now, after 105 days on strike and a tense, highly public battle, the billionaires have won. Momentive’s workers returned to the factory last week following a few days of “sensitivity training” to help them work with “scab” labour brought in to cover during the strike. The deal they struck has left many of them unhappy and worried about not just their futures but those of the many workers in similar situations across the US who contacted them during the strike.

“I was naive to this. I didn’t realise they were doing this all across the country,” said Robert Hohn, a Momentive employee for 16 years. The new deal leaves Hohn with an uncertain future as he attempts to cope with already outsized medical bills for his disabled wife. “We are not looking to own boats and yachts and stuff like that. We are looking to pay our mortgage. We are looking to send our kids and our grandkids to college. That’s all we are looking for it’s just something basic, simple, the everyday American dream needs.”

The underlying problem facing industrial workers grows out of the increasingly efficient automation of factories. It's not just jobs they need, but jobs that will pay enough to support a middle class life. Those good-paying factory jobs will be fewer and fewer and will demand more and more technical skill. If people are willing to work so cheaply that automation does not improve profitability, they won't earn enough to join the middle class.

It looks to me that the Trump policies will cause more separation between the rich and poor here, and will further decimate the middle class. Deporting Mexican laborers will free up many low-paying jobs that have been difficult to fill otherwise, but the idea must be for those workers to be replaced by citizens who lack the technical skills for modern factory work. Undermining the public school system will make it difficult for those growing up to escape a permanent underclass. Removing environmental controls will condemn the underclass to live in unhealthy surroundings. Gutting the ACA will shift the cost of medical care back to those of us who can afford to pay for health insurance, putting even more pressure on the middle class.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see anything yet to be optimistic about.
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#4917 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 15:32

View PostPassedOut, on 2017-February-24, 12:43, said:

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see anything yet to be optimistic about.


It seems to me that low-paying jobs are better than no jobs. And if the financial incentives are lined up properly, the number and pay qualify of jobs will increase. This includes renegotiation of trade agreements and judicious tariffs and border taxes.

Whether you think that is a good idea or not probably depends on whether you are a consumer or a job seeker.
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#4918 User is offline   PassedOut 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 15:53

View Postldrews, on 2017-February-24, 15:32, said:

It seems to me that low-paying jobs are better than no jobs.

Certainly, but the problem is that folks understandably aspire to jobs that support a middle-class lifestyle. Low-paying jobs don't do that.


View Postldrews, on 2017-February-24, 15:32, said:

And if the financial incentives are lined up properly, the number and pay qualify of jobs will increase. This includes renegotiation of trade agreements and judicious tariffs and border taxes.

What would the financial incentives be for factories to pay higher wages if automation is cheaper? How would tariffs and border taxes overcome that?


View Postldrews, on 2017-February-24, 15:32, said:

Whether you think that is a good idea or not probably depends on whether you are a consumer or a job seeker.

I look at it from the point of view of a business owner. The more discretionary income available to workers, the more our customers can spend.
The growth of wisdom may be gauged exactly by the diminution of ill temper. — Friedrich Nietzsche
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
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#4919 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 16:05

View PostPassedOut, on 2017-February-24, 15:53, said:

What would the financial incentives be for factories to pay higher wages if automation is cheaper? How would tariffs and border taxes overcome that?


Increasing automation is indeed a problem for middle class jobs. But many small businesses cannot afford the capitalization required to automate. So perhaps the focus could be on facilitating small businesses.

Also, if foreign products/labor are disadvantaged, then US businesses will put the pressure on the educational system to provide more capable workers so that the businesses can continue to produce products. Or move to more automation. It is obviously a complex dance.

One of the forces for more automation, particularly in the fast food industry, is the mandated minimum wage laws. This movement has a double barreled effect: Fewer jobs for entry level youth, and reduced job training for entry level youth. The fast food industry, in particular, has been the training ground for inexperienced youth for the last few decades. I don't see any replacement coming along that will train youth how to work.
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#4920 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 16:27

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2017-February-24, 12:19, said:

POTY
Anyone that has and defends a position is considered a troll?
Vulgar language and personal attacks are what need to be limited but since the main source of such infantile bad-behavior will hopefully be absent longer than the last one to take a break.....the problem may have solved itself ;)

What makes him seem "trollish" is the way he regularly posts provocative messages, rather than engaging in meaningful dialogue. But I could be misreading him, and this is the way he earnestly defends his positions.

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