[Elianna]

I am curious as to what most Beginning/Intermediate players would do with the following hand:

Scoring: MP

opps keep passing.
p-1♥
2♣!-3♣
???

---

2♣ is alerted and explained as a limit raise of hearts, which is exactly what you intended. What do you bid now?

Non-beginners/intermediates are welcome to post, but please, when you're replying to the poll, choose the correct options.

[mike777]

4h and I will not be surprised to go down.
Assume 3clubs shows clubs and non minimum

btw I open this hand 1club in first seat vul. Now let's stop short of game!
1c=1h
2h=?

let's put the pressure on partner not us!

btw2 as you can see no need for Drury!.

[whereagles]

I would bid 3♠, just in case pard is having slam visions. A straight 4♥ if he can't play 'em and/or can't bid 'em.

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Oct 30 2005, 07:15 AM, said:

I would bid 3♠, just in case pard is having slam visions. A straight 4♥ if he can't play 'em and/or can't bid 'em.

Agree with Nuno.
My hand is limited so pard won't play me a battleship, but now pd knows that his 3C rebid encouraged me AND that I have a spade control.

My hand has become a full opener after pard's 3C rebid, I'll keep the auction alive.

BTW all of the above assume that pard won't rebid 3C with an ordinary 5431 with 14/15 count.
I expect a shapely hand, say 55 or 64 with at least a very good 13 count with good controls.

[Blofeld]

I agree with 3♠. If partner has slam ambitions I have a great hand.

Only real alternative is 4♥, which tells the defence slightly less. There's no way I'm playing this in partscore with my club holding.

[ArcLight]

What are your agreements? They are far more important than the "correct" bid.

Personally, I don't like 2♣ as a Heart Limit raise, but thats your agreement.

What does 3♣ mean? Is that a help suit game try, asking pard for help in Clubs?
If so, I will go to 4♥ because of the ace, and I also have another ace, and the K of trumps.

Is it a short suit trial bid? My ace of clubs will still cover one loser and I have an ace and the K of trumps, I still go on to 4 hearts.

Is it a slam try? A cue bid? A good second suit?

I don't think pard is looking for 3NT, so I wont bid 3♠, I think its either a game try or a slam try.


My point is that without prior agreements, you have a BIG problem.
In the absence of agreements I will bid 4 Clubs, and hopefully pard can continue where he/she wants to go. Since I'm past 3NT eitehr they will signoff in 4♥ or bid Blackwwod or cue bid. (Hopefully you know what flavor of Blackwwod, RKCBW 1430/0314, regular)

[Elianna]

ArcLight, on Oct 30 2005, 06:46 AM, said:

What are your agreements?  They are far more important than the "correct" bid.

You have no agreements about what 3♣ means.

You have played with this partner before, and you believe that he can play the cards well, you just don't believe in a lot of conventions.

[hrothgar]

Elianna, on Oct 30 2005, 08:07 PM, said:

ArcLight, on Oct 30 2005, 06:46 AM, said:

What are your agreements?  They are far more important than the "correct" bid.

You have no agreements about what 3♣ means.

You have played with this partner before, and you believe that he can play the cards well, you just don't believe in a lot of conventions.

The issue here isn't one of "conventions"...

I would assume that partner is trotting out whatever structure he normally uses after the auction 1M - 2M. If this sequence is undefined than te bid reverts to a natural interpretation. In this case, he is showing a club suit and denying a hand that would immediately jump to game. He should have either game or slam invitational strength. Its possible that partner might be on some "weird" wavelength. However, bidding problems that assume that partner is tripping aren't real interesting.

Personally, I'd bid 3♠. I'd expect that many B/Is would bid 4♥

[han]

I think that 3S is the "normal" call, but it is not a surprice to see many of the B/I vote for 4H. Just ask yourself, how often do you have a passed hand with 2 aces, one king and 4-card support for partner? Given that partner has something in clubs the 109 of clubs might be useful too. You simply cannot overstate your values with this hand, so it is clear to bid 3S.

I'm looking forward to hear how this could have lead to a director call... perhaps a slow 3C call? I think that it is clear that 3H is not a possibility here.

[mr1303]

As I learnt Drury, 3C here was forcing and showed slam interest, so I'm bidding 3S, as a cue-bid for either hearts or clubs.

4H I think should show a horrible minimum

[Elianna]

Hannie, on Oct 30 2005, 11:57 AM, said:

I'm looking forward to hear how this could have lead to a director call... perhaps a slow 3C call? I think that it is clear that 3H is not a possibility here.

Thank you all for replying.

What got the director call was that 2♣ was NOT alerted as Drury. So now you know that partner DOESN'T know that you have heart support, and that he might just be raising your supposed clubs. Plus, as you play SA, partner's 3♣ bid is very weak.

The person with the hand I showed bid 3♥, and admitted that she bid that because her partner hadn't alerted Drury. I basically wanted to take a poll of people with roughly the same experience, to see what they would bid without knowledge of partner's forgetting of Drury.

As the results stood, 3♥ was down 3, and 4♥ down 4 would be worth the same matchpoints, plus the director of another local game did not return my call with results of the same poll I asked him to run as I posted here. So I ended up not adjusting the board, but giving the hand a very stern warning that she is NOT allowed to act on partner's non-alert. (I also warned that she might have gotten a procedural penalty if she were more experienced.)

I also considered if 4♥ would get doubled. It seems like it might (since it got doubled at another table) but my poll of flight A players (the caliber of the person who would have doubled) had them pass. Granted, it was only two flight A players, and I prolly would have asked more, but this would have done nothing for the standings, so I dropped the subject.

Incidentally, Jeff Goldsmith said that he wouldn't adjust, for a different reason. He feels that the non-alert did not indicate 3♥ over any other bid, but I'm not sure that I agree with that (I think that 3♥ caters to partner's forgetting Drury, it's the only bid that would let him off the hook if he forgot).

A funny side note: Her partner, the 3♥ bidder, was very upset at this whole director call, and felt that there was nothing wrong going on, and couldn't be made to understand why there might be a problem. The funny part of this is that he has around 1500 points, and is ALSO a director.

So again, thanks all for participating.

[Gerben42]

I think allowing 3♥ to stand is okay. Experts like Jlall will bid 3♠ here to emphasize the enormous potential of the hand, however I think many players will just apply fast arrival here:

Partner did not sign off in 2♥, he did not accept with 4♥ but bid something else. He has slam interest. Now 4♥ from me would be weak but I have 11 HCP and 2 for the 9th trump is 13, wow that is a lot. I must bid 3♥.

Edit: If I hear 1500 points I have to ask: in how many years? Is he a good player? That tells me more than if someone has many MP. Many junior players with 300 points will be better players than players with 3000 points who took a million years to collect them.

[Elianna]

Gerben42, on Oct 31 2005, 02:21 AM, said:

Edit: If I hear 1500 points I have to ask: in how many years? Is he a good player? That tells me more than if someone has many MP. Many junior players with 300 points will be better players than players with 3000 points who took a million years to collect them.

I think that the main part is that he's a director. He should know better because of that.

[han]

The part about the director is a very sad Elianna.

I think that the score should be changed to 4H-4, even if that does not change the matchpoint score. It was clear that the UI the 2C-bidder got from the non-alert was used, and 3S as well as 4H were (imo more than) reasonable alternatives.

I think that this is a perfect opportunity to adjust the score: it will make them understand the rules, and it won't hurt too much since it really doesn't matter for their result. I don't like procedural penalties in friendly games. I think that friendly games get friendlier when people have a good understanding of bridge ethics.

The director should be given the link to this thread (although you won't make friends by doing that).

[mike777]

"4h and I will not be surprised to go down."

I am just glad I wrote the above while everyone is making slam try.

Geez down 4 seems a bit harsh, what the heck was partner bidding?

Wuld it help if i open my hand 1c in first seat?

[han]

You think the hand is too good to pass in first seat, but not good enough to make a slam try as a passed hand. Does it make sense to you? Not to me.

By the way, I don't think that 3S is a slam try, it is cooperating with a slam try that partner might be making. You can't logically have slam interest in case partner is just making a game try. It would be insulting to assume that partner has forgotten your first pass.

(Roland, is it "has forgot" or "has forgotten" in proper British English? I really don't know, but it seems similar to "has got" and "has gotten".)

[mike777]

Well I thought Drury showed this hand, 4 trumps and good invite? Partner opened 1h in third seat, how much worse can I be?

I rarely play Drury but based on these posts people seem to really love this hand much more than me.

[han]

Most people do not play that 2C shows 4 trumps Mike. Nor does it show a "good" invite.

You are the only one who said that you would open the hand, yet you say that other people love the hand much better than you do.... doesn't make sense to me.