[arrows]

Scoring: IMP

---

W-----------N-----------E-----------S
P------------P(1)--------P-----------1♣(2)
p------------1♥(3)------P-----------2N(4)
P------------3♣(5)------P-----------3♦(6)
P------------3N(7)-------P-----------?

(1) You play 10-12 mini-NT open when white
(2) precision 16HCP+(can be less with distribution)
(3) natural positive, 4+ ♥, 8+ HCP
(4) artificial, 4+ ♥ support and unspecified singlton/void.
(5) ask
(6) ♣ short
(7) Serious 3NT, showing further interest.

If with the following additional agreement in the context:
Over 3♦, North may:
1. bid 3♥ showing 5+ hearts
2. bid 3♠ showing A/K in spades
3. bid 4♣ showing all values are outside clubs

What do you bid if you were South?

[pbleighton]

<misread auction, shouldn't post at night>

Peter

This post has been edited by pbleighton: 2005-December-03, 21:51

[000002]

yes i am an expert player:)
6♥directly,6NT maybe but can ignore it now.

[HeartA]

4NT (RKC) or 6H.

[pclayton]

Arrows - why do you play a system where the 1♣ responder is in charge of the auction? I don't think I've ever seen a Precision-based system where Opener answers asking bids (except where Opener rebids NT).

That seems to be a root cause of the problem here.

[arrows]

not talking about system, just follow the agreement carefully,

if no problem, I don't have to ask around

[EricK]

Does the serious 3NT bid deny 5+♥ and ♠K?

Eric

[whereagles]

The only reason pard has to suggest a slam on an 8-9 points hand with no club wastage is something like

Kxx
AJxxx
xx
xxx

despite him having denied this hand, I'm playing him for it because otherwise his bidding would be inconsistent. 6♥.

[Free]

pclayton, on Dec 4 2005, 04:47 AM, said:

Arrows - why do you play a system where the 1♣ responder is in charge of the auction? I don't think I've ever seen a Precision-based system where Opener answers asking bids (except where Opener rebids NT). 

That seems to be a root cause of the problem here.

That's not the key problem. Playing relays with semipositive responses, opener can also show his entire hand, no problems at all. The problem is you get too high without enough distributional information...

Anywaaaaaaaaaay, I don't know if p denied 5♥ or ♠K, but with what kind of hand can he have serious slam interest without ♠K??? I'd bid 4♦ or 4NT, depending if it's still possible to have such kind of hand.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

4NT

no expert here, but given your agreements,
partner must hold the Ace of clubs and only
4 hearts, else should have bid 3H to show the 5
card suit and because of 3NT, else he could
have bid 4C, with the King of clubs he should bid 4H.

3NT should say, I am maximum, I willing to march
on, but nothing more, responder does not know I am
super maximum.

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

I don't see how 4♦ can complicate our bidding, so I'll ust bid it. Chances on 7 are very slim, yet it could be our day.

[dogsbreath]

hi
I dont see where we going here .. p has apparently denied a top spade card and a 5+ H suit .. how many times am i supposed to bid this hand?
.. 4H for me

rgds Dog

[Kalvan14]

I assume that partner migh have a hand like x AJxxx QJxxx xx, or even x Axxxx Qxxxx Ax (which would make eminenly sense for a serious 3N).
I would bid 4N (RKC). If pard has 1 key-card, bid 6♥; if he has 2 KC, 7♥ might be there. Check if the spades have a 2nd round control

[arrows]

if you knew partner couldn't have 5 hearts and spade king,
and couldn't be 10+ HCP balanced hand, because of North's first pass,

Do you think South's hand worth another try over partner's serious 3NT?

[arrows]

for example, following the agreement,

North probably having heart ace fourth and ace empty of clubs, and maybe a
Jack somewhere.... and maybe some shape...

Do you think south's hand worth another try over serious 3NT?

[ArcLight]

With 4-4 in hearts, opps may be 4-1 and there is a chance of a trump loser, Jxxx is not that unlikely.
Also, even with 3-2, you may not be able to ruff a suit good, or ruff out all losers.

With the 3NT bid, I'll assume pard has the Ace of Hearts. Axxx in Clubs sounds plausible. I assume pard wouldn't make the slam try with KQJx in clubs opposite a stiff.

Whats pard short in, Diamonds? Can he ruff the 3rd round? Then what about Spades? You will have 1-2 losers (depending on the finesse) with a 5-3 fit with no fillers.

If he's short in Spades, then either you ruff Clubs or he ruff Spades. I dont think there are enough trump, you need 1 more.


Slam can make, but I think it requires good suit breaks and a finesse.
I guess its a tad under 50%, so I'll sign off in 4 Hearts.

[Robert]

Hello everyone

That auction really puzzled me. Would you mind posting partner's hand, so I can see why my doubts are so unwarrented?

Jumping to 2NT with this hand(while not showing AQ9xx of spades, the main feature of this hand) feels wrong and wasted a lot of bidding room.

The 3C ask and 3D answer look like solid methods, but a passed hand serious 3NT* bid here seems to be throwing away even more bidding room.

Surely you cannot want to stop in 3Hs, so 3D-3H would 'show' slam interest and leave room for a 3S cuebid or for partner(the 1C opener) to bid a serious 3NT* now.

I like to use LT(last train) in many more auctions than I ever use RKC. I could just barely see a LT bid(4D*) in this auction rather than that serious 3NT* bid by a passed hand(?) Did partner really forget to open the bidding?

I cannot belive that you would not cuebid 4Ds over a serious 3NT* bid by partner.

The fact that partner choose to bid this way and not allow me to show my Spade Ace(3D-3H-3S*-3NT-4D*) 'and' my Diamond Ace just causes me to wonder what is going on?

Regards,
Robert

[Robert]

Hello kalvan14

Your example hands for a serious 3NT* bid leave me very puzzled.
x Axxxx QJxxx xx and x Axxxx Qxxxx Ax

The first hand has two controls and seven losers 'without' a source of tricks 'that' bid a 'serious' 3NT* slam try? opposite a possible AKQxx KQxx xxx A ?

How can partner not 'cue' his club Ace and follow up by bidding his spade Ace 'after' your serious 3NT* bid?

The auction screams for a diamond lead and a diamond ruff is a not unlikely prospect after the 4S cuebid forces you to the five level.

The second example could cuebid the club Ace, but what possible reason would it have to bid a serious 3NT instead of 4Cs*.

RKC by opener without any idea of what partner 'holds' is telling partner that you can better judge the 'fit' of the two hands than he can 'while looking' at his hand. If RKC was right, partner should have bid it.

He could find out about your AK of diamonds(you did use a 'specific king' showing bidding method after RKC on another thread) and 'see' a source of tricks 'looking at' Qxxxx(QJxxx) of diamonds. Your RKC ask does not 'show' the AK of diamonds and certainly does not ask partner for the Qxxxx(or QJxxx) of diamonds.

If partner holds the cards for seven, he might be able to tell after cuebidding or RKC, however, you are very unlikely to do more than guess 'after' you bid RKC.

Regards,
Robert

[Kalvan14]

Robert,
I did not post the bidding. It beats me how a passed hand might invoke a "serious 3N", and I tried to build up a couple of hands which might be both passed hands, and willing to make a serious (?!) slam try.
When I was playing precision (and even more so when I was playing Neapolitan Club), responder might take the lead more or less each leap year , and certainly not if he was a passed hand. Maybe times are changed.

Is there a real hand which might bid a serious 3N? And refuse to cue-bid spades?
(IMO, you are right: opener should not put away his spade suit; another strange feature of this hand).