BBO Discussion Forums: Re: Open Letter to BBO Players - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Re: Open Letter to BBO Players

#1 User is offline   fred 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,597
  • Joined: 2003-February-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas, USA

Posted 2003-March-05, 06:16

Quote

As many of you know, I am principally responsible for the start up of tournament play.  We have completed 2 tournaments to date and I thought I would take this opporftunity to give you a status report.

For those of you who have participated, let me thankyou for your patience.  We are off to a bit of a rough start because we face one anticipated and one not aniticpated learning curve.  We knew the players lack of familiarity with the format and process of play would cause delays.  iT HAS  been a little worse than I expected-in part because so many played on Sunday-but also because despite my pleas for days it was apparant that less than 10% of the players read the announcements or rules.  I can/t honestly say for sure whether I would have either(hey I know how to play bridge) but that caused a great deal of delay ande confusion in getting set up.;  We also wind up answering the same questions over and over again-the answers to which are invariably in the unread announcements.  Well play dropped off  last night-I think we had 10 tables or so which is quite manageable and more in line what we expected.  As players learn the game things will go much more smoothly.  We are going to limit the evening tournaments to 16 tables so early registration is suggested.
I have run this format of tournament at another site more than 50 times and all of our other directors are highly experienced-generally more so than I-but what I did not expect was the learning curve required of the directors to deal with the BBO system.  This is not a criticism of the system at all. we are thrilled with the support Fred and everyone at BBO has given,.  The program simply takes some getting used to and that has caused us both delay and confusion.  We will do it better every time out,  We are trying to work the kinks and we will.

Please continue to come out and play. these are intended to be fun events for You.,

Finally-there are a few players-and I mean just a few - who must think we are being paid the big bucks for putting on the tournaments.    We are volunteers.  We put on these tournaments because we enjoy playing in them and know how much fun they provide as an alternative form of competition.  We hope all of you come and play and have a great time-we have spent a lot of time trying to get it right and will continue to be better and better.  I am more than happy and infact encourage constructive criticism and suggestions for how to make the game better/  On the other hand  I do not  want to hear my directors being cursed out-when all we are doing is the best we can for you.  i hope that's not unreasonable on my part.  We certainly don't want to offend anyone or make unone unhappy.  We try our best to be responsive,  Believe me we want you to be happy-we are as frustrated as you are if things don't go right-perhaps more so.  I would hope that if you don't have something nice to say you won't say anything, but if you are compelled to exorcize your anger or frustration please direct it to me not to my other assistants and directors-I have big shoulders.
We will get the process down in short order-this I promise-so come thursday  or whenever you can and enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I justed wanted to take this opportunity to thanks Bob and the other directors for their hard work and perseverance. I certainly appreciate the time and energy they have spent in an effort to increase other players enjoyment of bridge and I am sure there are plenty of BBO members who feel the same way.

Hopefully more participants will familiarize themselves with the rules. For our part, we will do whatever we can to help out Bob and his team of volunteers.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
0

#2 User is offline   Mike 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 26
  • Joined: 2003-February-13

Posted 2003-March-05, 13:11

I am sorry Fred but I do not feel the same way.

As one who tried out this thing and became quite frustrated, can honestly say that this totalpoint format is bad in its intention as well as in its presentation.

I carefully went through the rules and followed them by the letter. What I saw in the organizer's attitude is that the audience is the responsible for the total mess that those very organizers made.  

There are basic problems in the conception and attitude.

If they so well prepared and done this for other sites, where are they. Why not attracted the on-line audience so far there. Why BBO success needed for that?

If they so experienced why should I wait together with my pd for more than 35 minutes after the so called start and finally leave because the so much experienced TDs were totally disregarding the registration.

I took part many starting initiatives and know what patience needed to overcome early sicknesses. But here we got a bragging initiative with so called very experienced staff.

They annonced early that they are volunteers, so they are out and above of any criticisme! If something is wrong, it is the public!

The basic idea that: this form will attract the less experienced bridge players because it replaces skill and acquired knowledge with pure luck, does not appeal at all to me.

It looks that what was really a failure in other sites is trying to establish itself in BBO, make it like an e-brige. The tournament which I refer to was terribly similar to the early tournaments in e-bridge, lol.

On top of that I experienced software problems after trying out unsuccessfully that format and had to reinstall BBO. (Thanks Gererdo for the help in localizing the problem)

After this unhappy experience I will avoid those totalpoint events as far as it is possible. Additionally I do not feel gratitude for that total point initiatives that looks to me rather paraziting on BBO than adding something to it.

I found many other disappointed people who together with me never ever experienced such a bad thing on this site. So, I felt obliged to pass their opinion as well.

I am truly sorry Fred that I could not be more positive this time.
0

#3

  • Group: Guests

Posted 2003-March-05, 14:46

Please let us not forget that this is a free site.
0

#4 User is offline   fred 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,597
  • Joined: 2003-February-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas, USA

Posted 2003-March-05, 15:40

Quote

I am sorry Fred but I do not feel the same way.

As one who tried out this thing and became quite frustrated, can honestly say that this totalpoint format is bad in its intention as well as in its presentation.

I carefully went through the rules and followed them by the letter. What I saw in the organizer's attitude is that the audience is the responsible for the total mess that those very organizers made.  

There are basic problems in the conception and attitude.

If they so well prepared and done this for other sites, where are they. Why not attracted the on-line audience so far there. Why BBO success needed for that?

If they so experienced why should I wait together with my pd for more than 35 minutes after the so called start and finally leave because the so much experienced TDs were totally disregarding the registration.

I took part many starting initiatives and know what patience needed to overcome early sicknesses. But here we got a bragging initiative with so called very experienced staff.

They annonced early that they are volunteers, so they are out and above of any criticisme! If something is wrong, it is the public!

The basic idea that: this form will attract the less experienced bridge players because it replaces skill and acquired knowledge with pure luck, does not appeal at all to me.

It looks that what was really a failure in other sites is trying to establish itself in BBO, make it like an e-brige. The tournament which I refer to was terribly similar to the early tournaments in e-bridge, lol.

On top of that I experienced software problems after trying out unsuccessfully that format and had to reinstall BBO. (Thanks Gererdo for the help in localizing the problem)

After this unhappy experience I will avoid those totalpoint events as far as it is possible. Additionally I do not feel gratitude for that total point initiatives that looks to me rather paraziting on BBO than adding something to it.

I found many other disappointed people who together with me never ever experienced such a bad thing on this site. So, I felt obliged to pass their opinion as well.

I am truly sorry Fred that I could not be more positive this time.




Mike,

I am sorry you had a bad experience with the total points tournaments. Here is what I think:

- Baronreit is certainly trying hard. The main point of my post was to thank him for the time and energy that he has put into this on a purely voluntary basis.
- The more experience the players and directors get with tournaments on BBO, the more smoothly these events will run.
- The software as it currently stands is less than ideal for running kinds of events. I am sure this is part of the reason for some of the problems that Baronreit and Mike have described.
- These kind tournaments have been very popular on other sites and I have no doubt that they could be very popular on BBO as well.
- If players don't like the way these tournaments are run on our site then they don't have to play in them. If enough people feel the same way then these tournaments will die out on BBO. I hope that does not happen, but The Law of the Jungle rules.

If these total points tournaments aren't for you, there will eventualyl be an alternative on BBO. Implementing duplicate tournaments on BBO will be the main focus of my work over the next few months.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
0

#5 User is offline   keylime 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: FD TEAM
  • Posts: 2,735
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashville, TN
  • Interests:Motorsports, cricket, disc golf, and of course - bridge. :-)

Posted 2003-March-05, 16:09

With anything new software and logistical wise, there's bound to be some problems. Be very very grateful the client is as stable as it is...it is so far ahead of e-bridge and OkBridge I wouldn't want anything else.

To make anything a success requires active participation. I for one was saddened that I wasn't able to particpate in the tourney for I had other commitments with my students. We can't simple scorn this out of hand -- it requires nuturing, adaptation, and constructive feedback.

Total points format...an interesting concept to say the least. Does luck enter into it? Of course, but so does any other form of scoring. It's not fun passing all the time (which for me lately hasn't been a problem). It's not fun defending over and over again. We as players rather prefer to get strong hands all the time or contracts that allow us to control our fate. This simple doesn't happen in bridge and in real life.

The law of averages tells me that over the long run, the best players and partnerships will rise to the top of the class. Also, the probability of getting let's say, 6/7 of 8 hands that is less than opening strength and requires a pass is less than 0.000001%. It simply doesn't happen. So you'll get a chance to play and a chance to succeed.

With anything new, administration has to be tinkered and streamlined. I'm not surprised there were teething problems because that's supposed to happen. However to simple dismiss this concept out of hand is foolish and short-sighted. There will be continued recruitment of tourney directors and assistants (I volunteered eagerly and will attend the sessions ASAP with others), and there will be a learning process in playing total points.

I've been lucky to play total points scoring a few times, and it is really not all different from anything else. You're rewarded for accurate game/slam bidding and sound defense. If anything this format allows for a more thoughtful approach as the match goes on because if you're behind you play attackingly with more penalty doubles and game tries, and if ahead you attempt to bid carefully and sanely. Thusly the format is not only dynamic but mathematically intact.

We as a community should endeavor to support this tourney for it's really a celebration of our membership playing and socializing together. And, it's a little different than playing IMP/matchpoint scoring, and like Arby's, different is good. :)
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
0

#6 User is offline   baronreit 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 13
  • Joined: 2003-February-24
  • Location:florida, USA

Posted 2003-March-05, 17:23

Mike-I directed Sunday's game and if that is the game you attempted to play you have my sincere apology for the bad experience.  I hope you will give the game another chance-it is intemded to favor the less experienced player but I would say that in most events the better players move deep into the rounds-and indeed win on more occasions than not.  As Fred noted, The volunteer directors and assistants have successfully run this type of event for years at another site that is dying-many of those players have come to bbo and wanted not only to continue their game but -because they find it so much fun-offer the BBO community the opportunity to participate.  We are running 4 tournaments a week-they run 5 tournaments a day!!so give us the benefit of the doubt as far as our experience with the format goes.  Having said that we know full well we have gotten off to a bad start.  As I tried to explain it takes a while for the players to learn the game-and this we expected.  We did not expect the difficulties with the program.  Fo r example-the director if sitting at a table is blind to the tournament room-this is a huge problem which we think we have figured a way to correct by posting assistants in the lobby,  The vulnerability on the hands works sometimes and sometimes not-sometimes a table starts with board 1 sometimes board 2-if players don't get 2 hands at each vul in round 1 and 1 at each in succeeding rounds the total points scoring becomes unfair-never mind the luck factor.  So we are attemptoing to figure out a solution that does not slow done play-we would be happy for any suggestions.   We did not expect the huge turn out at sundays game- I oversold the event -we were fran kly overwhelmed - and when you couple that with the unexpected program difficulties and players complete lack of experience-well it was a recipe for disaster.  That of course is our view-we know we can do a much better job and will-in actuality while we know there were some very frustrated players-the number was suprisingly small.  Most who played seemed to enhoy it-were patient and understood this was our first experience at BBO I

Come back 1 more time and see if we arn't doing a better management job.  We are not suggesting the format is an alternative to serioujs bridge-its not intended to be-its a diversion-group party bridge if you will.  We agree entirely with Fred-the format will  live or die on the basis of how many players want it.  I can tell you with al sincereity that the fact that you sat waiting for opponents or assignment for that period of time is personally -but it did not derive from anyone's lack of care-or arrogance or disrespect-it happned because we did not have good control of the event.  I can tell you this with absolute assurance-we have corrected that situation and no one is gonna sit at an empty table or  be forgotten mor any unreasonable time period in the future
rsg
0

#7 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,564
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2003-March-06, 08:49

For goodness sake Mike... why did you ever try to play in a total point, knock out event where some rounds are only 4 boards if felt like this (mike's quotes bulleted)?
'
  • "totalpoint format is bad in its intention as well as in its presentation"
  • "this form will attract the less experienced bridge players because it replaces skill and acquired knowledge with pure luck, does not appeal at all to me"
  • "It looks that what was really a failure in other sites is trying to establish itself in BBO"
  • "I will avoid those totalpoint events as far as it is possible."
You didn't like the concept from the beginning, so for goodness sake why did you go try it?  Would you have enjoyed it even if it had run smoothly? I myself don't like totalpoint things using a limited number of hands (and from 8 to 4 per round, and you get eliminated if you don't draw good cards? Nope not for me. Total point events can work ok but the total number of boards would have to be staggering to even out the luck of the draw. However, while I have no intention of playing in such a total point event, let me say that I applaud the efforts of the organizers to try and get such an event set up. Of course, why they have to use total points instead of imps or matchpoints (self reported) is beyond me.

There is an old saying that goes something like "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." I think this applied here. The tournment organizer's post made it clear that the first one was less than successful. If you felt compelled to complain, a simple reminder to others that total points over 4 hands leads to random winners, and that you didn't enjoy it would have been more than sufficient.

Keep up the, obviously, nearly thankless work baronreit. Its only nearly thankless, because I join fred in thanking you. I know many will find the tournments exciting.  
--Ben--

#8 User is offline   Ken50 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 6
  • Joined: 2003-February-15

Posted 2003-March-06, 10:33

As a person who does on occasion direct a bridge tournie on another site i must say this in defence of the organizers of this tournie.

I sat in on sunday and watched this tournie unfold , the sheer numbers of participants on a new and very different site had me gasping as thoughts went through my head, how are they going to handle this. As one who has seen internet tournies with at most 20 tables ( not directed by me mind you as the most i have directed is still less then 10 ) I have always been amazed by the commitment and dedication of those good folks who take the time to provide a social event for others for no other reason then the love of the game. In this I applaud Baron and the assistant directors.

This first time tournie acheived 30 + tables , on a new site, there had to be problems. no way out of this and as i watched you could see that Baron knew this, but he hung in there, and the AD's hung in there, Why ?

Because as i suspect from my experience of directing internet tournies .....its the reward of seeing good folks enjoying themselves, having fun, and becoming part of what this BBO community is all about.

The difficulties faced by setting up tournies on this site will be hammered out and improved, i have the confidence in those who are currently running this tournie that things will improve..........but all players have a part in this process.....and its called patience...it will happen folks  :)

To Baron and all the AD's......Hang in there. Anyone who gives of their own time for nothing more then community,has mine and a lot of others full support.

I have always beleived, in my experience of attending internet tournies in the last five years, that bad press in print about these tournies should never occur as long as there is a group of people attending these functions. Take up your concerns with the director and leave them there,,,,,thats one of the reasons they are there. If as Fred says about the law of the jungle, and this tourny fails , let it be because people simply dont show up.
0

#9 User is offline   baronreit 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 13
  • Joined: 2003-February-24
  • Location:florida, USA

Posted 2003-March-12, 08:31

Ken you cannot imagine how gratifying  your post is.  We are in fact running far more efficiently and without any promotion we are consistently at ten tables and I expect steady growth.  For those of you who have not played in a tournament yet come give it a  try.  For those who tried it out the first week come back we are far quicker in moving rounds and seating players.  Thanks again for the kind words
rsg
0

#10 User is offline   gurub 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 2003-March-12
  • Location:Tucson,AZ

Posted 2003-March-12, 13:04

I also wanted to put in my 2 cents..

I know the software here isn't the greatest (YET, thanks Fred) for running tournaments right now,  but I was there and saw Baron did the best that he could,  I am also experienced in running these types of tournaments, and it is NOT easy,  the toughest part is getting going, then getting used to the format.

I know with experience here, it will only get better

GB
0

#11 User is offline   Rado 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 177
  • Joined: 2003-April-04
  • Location:Varna, Bulgaria

Posted 2003-April-11, 16:36

What about such scheme?

1. After a pair is signed for the tournament it is automatically sent to random table with reserved places and till the end of the round is fixed there (if bad connection, coming directly to the reserved place after quiting and back)
2. When the start is given all tables play one and the same board
3. the scoring method might be what ever we choose:
-on Mondey - IMPS
-on Tuesday - Matchpoints
-on Wednesday - Medianna
-on Tuesday - Patton scoring
-on Friday - Total
-on Saturday - Rubber
-0n Sunday - dance

Glad to hear whether the above mentioned will not require too much changes in the software
0

#12 User is offline   Laird 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 131
  • Joined: 2003-March-03

Posted 2003-April-14, 23:34

Hello Everyone
I played in the Tournament last night for the first time and it was FUN!!
Sure we had to wait in a queue for a short time to register... thats normal.
Sure we had a few disconnection problems ..thats normal.
We had 'Voyager' sitting and playing a hand when he shouldn't have.....I don't know if thats normal!
The director was called to give a ruling.... Wonderful!
Ok you generally progress in the competition if you are lucky with the cards but when it is close then all the tactical bidding etc comes to the fore and you can feel the excitement growing.
I felt after the end of the night that i had been to a real tournament with all the excitement, frustration, joy and disappointment... but it was FUN.
If you play the game in this manner then it is worth the effort. Have a go i'm sure you will enjoy the experience.
I would like to congratulate the Director and his helpers for providing a smashing evening out and of course my partner for the night Joly 3.

Best wishes

John
UDCA...'You take the High Road an I'll take the Low Road'...
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users