[jillybean]

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I would normally open this 1C but looking at the rebid options, 1nt appears to be a better option – comments please?

tyia
jb

[mike777]

These offshape 1nt hands are the subject of a never ending debate. I am a big fan of them but you will never see a general agreement .

[jillybean]

Ah, maybe I should have searched for this topic rather than start another one

[Walddk]

I don't mind off-shape 1NT's, and this looks ok to me. However, I don't think it's wrong to open 1♣ and rebid 2♣. If I have 2-2 in the majors, I prefer to have honours in both, so if I change your example a little, 1NT stands out a mile in my opinion:

♠ KJ
♥ AQ
♦ xxx
♣ KQ10xxx

Roland

[mike777]

I am currently reading the 2005 World Championship book. I see wide disagreement on when to open these offshape 1nt hands. A rough guess is at the very top levels about 50% seem to open them and 50% open something else.

I guess that means you can win or almost win a World Championship playing either method .

[neilkaz]

I would open the hand given by Roland 1NT, but definately not the hand shown in the initial post. I really don't like to open an offshape 1NT with a hand that can be bid other ways (not too strong for 1C-2C here) when it has a major flaw like a weak dbleton in a major !

Just my style, for what it's worth .. neilkaz ..

[keylime]

I'm a 1♣ bidder.

The reasons is not only the shape, but if 3NT is your landing spot, this is a hand I'd like tabling for partner as I listen to music on my iPod.

[mike777]

neilkaz, on Aug 3 2006, 12:34 PM, said:

I would open the hand given by Roland 1NT, but definately not the hand shown in the initial post. I really don't like to open an offshape 1NT with a hand that can be bid other ways (not too strong for 1C-2C here) when it has a major flaw like a weak dbleton in a major !

Just my style, for what it's worth .. neilkaz ..

Good point. In my methods showing 14-16 hcp hands can be a bit of a pain at times so I try and lump as many extreme offshape hands as possible into 1nt.

A long minor with xx in a side suit in not an issue for me.
But a 5 card major with a side 4 card suit or xx in a side suit would mean I do not open 1nt.

[awm]

Well I'm not sure what's wrong with 1♣...3♣ with this hand. That should show something like 15-17 with a good suit in my book. Of course your treatment may vary but I thought this was fairly standard (weaker hands rebid 2♣, stronger hands "fake" a reverse or open 2♣).

Of course there are times when it's better to open 1NT with this pattern. But I think those times generally fall into a few categories:

(1) If the club suit is bad and the honors are elsewhere, we don't want to rebid 3♣. For example ♠Kx ♥Ax ♦AQx ♣Qxxxxx.

(2) If the hand is likely to play well in a major when partner has five, but it will be difficult to reach that spot after the 3♣ rebid because partner might pass or might choose not to rebid a weak five card suit (preferring notrump). For example ♠AQx ♥Qx ♦xx ♣AKT9xx.

On the given hand the clubs are plenty strong enough to rebid, and you don't particularly want to play in hearts should partner transfer you there on a weak five-carder planning to pass.

Obviously different players set the "threshold" for these bids differently, even at the world championship level, but I think the main criterion to consider are the same. Personally I'd open 1♣ with the example hand, but would certainly consider 1NT with Roland's hand, and would normally bid 1NT with the hands in the examples above.

[mike777]

As I said no general agreement.

If you do choose to lump these hands into 1nt, then 1c=anything=3c will promise a stiff or a void.

[inquiry]

I cranked this up on a large BRidgeBRowser database, with the following criteria.

First Seat held:
1) 6Clubs
2) 6322 distribution
3) 15 or 16 hcp
4) club suit at least headed by the Q

Out of 16127 hands that matched that criteria, 4774 people chose to open 1NT (29.6%). Those choosing to open 1NT averaged 0.59 imps (3082 hands) and 55.20% MP (1692 times). Since these are the very same hands that choose not to open 1NT, the data suggest that opening 1NT is a winning option.

To be sure, I keep the same requirements, but choose a 1C opening bid. It found the same 16127 hands, where 11225 (69.6%) (I didn't look to see what the other 0.8 percent of people opened with). The average for opening 1C was -0.32 (5571( and 48.48% (5654).

Make of you what you will from these statistics. Maybe better players tend to open 1NT with this shape. Maybe this shape is easier to describe after 1NT than choosing between a 2C underbid or 3C overbid. (The actual result for a 2C and 3C rebid are about identical 2C = -0.29 and 47.57%, 3C = -0.26, 48.77%). I just share this for what it is worth. Actually a 1NT rebid did better than either of those club rebids, oddly enough.

Note for Roland and others: I placed no restriction on the quality of the doubleton suits or which suits where doubleton, only requirement was 6C to at least the Q, and 322 in the other three suits

[mike777]

Ben I guess the objection by some is the xx only in the 2 card major suit. I guess that means Jx is ok? I still open 1nt but can understand why many may not.

[pclayton]

Interesting stats Ben.

I would have opened 1♣, due to the weak doubleton and rebid 3♣ at IMPs and 2♣ at MPs.

Perhaps this is wrong though.

[neilkaz]

mike777, on Aug 3 2006, 02:02 PM, said:

Ben I guess the objection by some is the xx only in the 2 card major suit. I guess that means Jx is ok. I still open 1nt but can understand why many may not.

Jx normally wouldn't be OK for me, Qx would with this hand.

Give me another HCP (ie a good 16 rather than this good 15) and I'll open 1C and jump rebid 3C but some players just cannot seem to pass after the 3C jump even holding a junkie 6 HCP.

[mike777]

As I said these 14-16 hands with no stiff or voids can be a bit sticky for my style so I just throw as much as I can into offshape 1nt. That leaves 1minor=?=3minor to promise a stiff or void. Bidding this way with xx in your major can feel a bit hairy but would be interesting if Ben could run some stats.

One problem is even if you lose a bit with these 1nt's are you gaining more with making the rest of your auctions more constructive?

[kenrexford]

The factors I consider when opening 1NT with a six-card minor include the following:

1. Do I want to put some pressure on spade competition with a slight preempt? On this hand, yes. That leans me toward 1NT.

2. Do I want to strongly suggest a lead of my minor if the opponents win a partscore battle? Not all that much here, so 1NT gains more favor.

3. Do I have a slam-suitable holding, where focusing the minor might be a good idea? On this hand, whereas I like my hand generally, I dislike the looming club finesse guess, and I dislike my heart honors. Thus, I tend again toward 1NT.

4. Do I have a game plan if partner uses garbage stayman? Here, I do. I am not all that upset with a 3♣ call after 1NT-P-2♣-P-2♦-P-2♥, and I can stomach a pass of 2♦. Again, more in favor of 1NT.

5. Finally, what if partner bids 4NT quantitative? I can live with a 5♣ trial bid.

Thus, I would opt here for a 1NT opening.

[neilkaz]

mike777, on Aug 3 2006, 02:08 PM, said:

As I said these 14-16 hands with no stiff or voids can be a bit sticky for my style so I just throw as much as I can into offshape 1nt. That leaves 1minor=?=3minor to promise a stiff or void. Bidding this way with xx in your major can feel a bit hairy but would be interesting if Ben could run some stats.

One problem is even if you lose a bit with these 1nt's are you gaining more with making the rest of your auctions more constructive?

As Mike points out, it is so very important to have a total system of bidding that you and your PD's are familiar and practiced with.

I play in MBC mostly with adv or exp pickups. So my style has to conform to what most 2/1ers or SAYCers do and since I play with many who aren't from North America, it helps to be a bit familiar with how they'll open 1NT and so many of them don't open 1NT with anything that could be considered close to a flaw.

.. neilkaz ..

[inquiry]

Ok.. I choose the largest BRidgeBRowser Database, and changed the search criteria.

1) Dealer has 15-16 hcp
2) Dealer has 6322 distribution
3) Dealer has xx in spades
4) Dealer has heart Qx to AKQ (two or three card heart suit), either Qx, Kx, Ax, QJ, KJ, AJ, AQ, AK, or any three hearts
5) Dealer ahs a six card minor and 2 or 3 in the other minor

6901 hands matched this criteria.

Opening 1C averaged 0.22 imps and 49.12 MP
Opening 1D averaged -0.11 imps and 48.52 MP
Opening 1N averaged 0.05 imps and 55.79 MP

Again the stats were tiled towards 1C or 1D opening bids, as there was only 1264 1NT opening bids (18.3%). So having xx in spades casued about 1/2 of the people who opened 1NT with this distibution to forgo that bid (last time it was nearly 30% when major suit quality not restricted).

[neilkaz]

Inquiry, if it isn't too much trouble, could you run the last search but for only 15 hcp hands ?

ty.. neilkaz ..

[inquiry]

neilkaz, on Aug 3 2006, 02:37 PM, said:

Inquiry, if it isn't too much trouble, could you run the last search but for only 15 hcp hands ?

ty.. neilkaz ..

Same requirements as last seach, except opener limited to 15 hcp (not 15-16)

Found 4220 hands, there was very little change.

Opening 1C averaged 0.26 imps and 49.30 MP
Opening 1D averaged -0.12 imps and 48.53 MP
Opening 1N averaged 0.06 imps and 55.04 MP

For what is it worth, one fellow opened 1S (on xx), 2C was opened 19 times (precision i guess), 2D three times (did hold six diamonds half the time and these bids were made with 6D). For what it is worth 2D and 2C opening bid did much, much worse than average, but very small sample size. There was also 5 3C opening bids, 1 3D opening bid and 3 3NT opening bids Each of these bids did very poorly