[Apollo81]

♠Qx
♥AKQx
♦K108xx
♣xx

♠Kxx
♥xxxx
♦Ax
♣Axxx

white IMPs

1♦-(pass)-1♥-(2♠)
3♥-(all pass)

[whereagles]

That one is a good example of why FTL working points are hard to count. If both players count their spade honors as working points (which in this case they are), game might be reached. Otherwise not.

In any case, I don't think anyone's at fault.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Nobodys fault.

The main problem is a
system / style issue.

How weak can your openers
be?

Is 3H by opener just a courtesy
raise or does it show a better
than min opener.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Free]

Depends on your agreements... If north has a good 4 card support bid (2NT for example) then North is clearly in fault since 3♥ is just competitive in that case. Otherwise it's nobody's fault. So I guess 'mostly opener'

[mike777]

As often seems to happen I am really shocked by these answers.

1) Using FTL seems pretty easy on this one I bid 4H
13+1-4=10 tricks
+1=22 working hcp seems pretty easy.
-4=estimated 2 shortest suits

2) LTC Partner opened and I got 7.5 losers I just bid 4H at imps

3) Playing good/bad 2nt very easy then since 3H shows a big hand, in fact more than this so.....I guess we are not playing that convention.

4) Having my aces and kings outside of my trump suit is a huge plus...having 4 small trumps is a minus but is sounds like a trump finesse is on.

5) I can only assume the passers really assume partner opens on junk and rebids 3H on less. But if we really play that cannot North just pass and wait for partner to reopen with a game force hand?

[pclayton]

It can't be North; 3♥ is a bit of an overbid with the questionable Q♠.

I think passing 3♥ is a deep position with responder. I can see the weak trump and the questionable ♠K, but whats wrong with 3N?

[mikeh]

While I have some sympathy for S's decision, it strikes me as unilateral.

Nobody held a gun to N's head to make him bid 3♥... he had an easy pass with any minimum, even with 4 card support, because S will bid again any time the hand belongs to NS. So N's 3♥ bid showed extras.

In that context, for South to downgrade his hand because of poor trump and a possibly vulnerable ♠K, is too much of a mastermind decision.

I would have more sympathy for S were RHO to be on lead, but the ♠K has some value even if LHO holds AQJ..... because LHO has to find some other lead.

And the two aces are huge...

S has to bid game, and I don't think it is close.

Please note that I don't use FTL or LOTT or Zar or any other metric: I use the following: partner showed 4 trump, with extra values, willing to play 3♥ opposite a hand far worse than I hold, and I have a near-opener... bid game!

[hotShot]

Responder has to take the blame for not reaching game.

Opener overbid his hand (so it's his fault when the contract goes down) and responder has shown a minimum of 6HCP up to now.

If one should bid game with responders hand is a different question .......

[HeartA]

Oops. I voted for "mostly responder" before I saw "responder".

[jdeegan]

This question has a rather clearcut answer, imo. Responder took an extreme position that didn't work out. He wants to be in game opposite any 'real' 3♥ bid, and also opposite many 'pushy' raises (like the actual hand) as well. This leaves only a small minority of the possible 3♥ bids that will validate a pass. The spade king and weak hearts argue for 3NT which will be corrected to 4♥.

[awm]

The methods may take some of the blame, so I chose "mostly responder."

Certainly if opener's 3♥ bid implies more than a minimum, south should go on to game. Sure, there are four weak trumps and a possibly misplaced ♠K, but there are also two aces and a doubleton. And sometimes the spade king is a useful card too (like here).

Of course there are questions about how much 3♥ shows, since 2NT or double could be used on some hands to distinguish good competitive hands from bad ones. Without discussion the 3♥ bid is a little murky and I see a lot of people bid this way on balanced 12-counts (which would make south's pass a little more palatable). Still I think the standard is that 3♥ shows extras and that most of the optional treatments actually concur with this (using 2NT...3♥ for example to show a minimum competitive raise).

[mike777]

For us point counters it seems normal to play it as 2.5 hearts at a minimum
normal 2h=12 pts?
normal 3h=16pts?
so this nonnormal 3h=2.5 hearts=14 working hcp and no stiff or void?

[pclayton]

mike777, on Aug 16 2006, 12:59 PM, said:

For us point counters it seems normal to play it as 2.5 hearts at a minimum
normal 2h=12 pts?
normal 3h=16pts?
so this nonnormal 3h=2.5 hearts=14 working hcp and no stiff or void?

Reasonable; but I'd base it more on LTC than points.

I'd put a 3H hand in the 6.0 to 6.5 loser range.

[willow23]

I think that 3♥ hearts is very encouraging...Partner is inviting to game if maxed hand...11 hcp opposite p's fit = limit raise..which more often than not belongs in game..

Not a time to get cold feet...Go for it!