[pigpenz]

Scoring: IMP

---

auction:
1♦ 4♥ pass pass
your call?

nv vs nv at imps is this hand worth the risk to bid again?

[EricK]

You must bid again. You could easily have a game or slam here. Double keeps all options open so I would bid that - but there is no guarantee that partner will make the correct decision (which is why people pre-empt).

[pbleighton]

I would double. I don't see any other call as being close, though it could easily lead to a bad result.

If you pass in situations like this, they will steal you blind.

Peter

[bid_em_up]

I cant imagine seriously considering anything other than double.

Yes, partner may leave it in and it makes. Yes partner may bid and go for a big number. Stuff happens.

But X is the most descriptive bid, imo and over the long haul, it is the winning bid (also my own opinion and apparently many others as well).

[pigpenz]

movingon, on Dec 24 2006, 06:04 PM, said:

is 6 diamonds an option?

most likely that is why i included 5♥ or 4NT as options, just curious as to what most people thought would be the most logical choice

in the ACBL BBO game my opp bid 5♣ catching his wife with 6♣'s to the ACE

[zasanya]

pbleighton, on Dec 24 2006, 01:00 PM, said:

I would double.  I don't see any other call as being close, though it could easily lead to a bad result.

If you pass in situations like this, they will steal you blind.

Peter

No other call is close and yet could be easily wrong?
Seems to be an oxymoron. .What is wrong with 5♦ with dbl signifying penalty and no desire to compete (if you are not ambitious)?and 5♥ if you are ambitious?

[the hog]

"What is wrong with 5D with dbl signifying penalty and no desire to compete (if you are not ambitious)?and 5♥ if you are ambitious? "

I am either totally misunderstanding what you are saying or else you are smoking noxious substances....5D is a crazy bid as it by passes 5C and shows a FAR better D suit. 5H is even worse as it by passes 5C and 5D. Double is the only bid if you are going to bid - and I would.

[cherdano]

zasanya, on Dec 25 2006, 08:58 AM, said:

pbleighton, on Dec 24 2006, 01:00 PM, said:

I would double.  I don't see any other call as being close, though it could easily lead to a bad result.

If you pass in situations like this, they will steal you blind.

Peter

No other call is close and yet could be easily wrong?
Seems to be an oxymoron.

No it's not. Double is the right bid, while it could easily turn out wrong on any specific hand. But any other bid is far more likely to turn out wrong, and so no other call is close.

Quote

What is wrong with 5♦ with dbl signifying penalty and no desire to compete (if you are not ambitious)?and 5♥ if you are ambitious?

Double is not penalty, it shows cards and encourages partner to compete. There are no hands where partner would bid without a double and pass after the double.

[kenberg]

pigpenz, on Dec 24 2006, 07:56 PM, said:

movingon, on Dec 24 2006, 06:04 PM, said:

is 6 diamonds an option?

most likely that is why i included 5♥ or 4NT as options, just curious as to what most people thought would be the most logical choice

in the ACBL BBO game my opp bid 5♣ catching his wife with 6♣'s to the ACE

5C? That's different. Maybe husband thinks wife doesn't play the cards well.

I guess a double would fetch a club bid anyway. If wifey has a couple of small spades to go with her Axxxxx in clubs it seems that she has a tough decision about whether to raise 5C to 6.

[zasanya]

The_Hog, on Dec 25 2006, 05:07 AM, said:

"What is wrong with 5D with dbl signifying penalty and no desire to compete (if you are not ambitious)?and 5♥ if you are ambitious? "

I am either totally misunderstanding what you are saying or else you are smoking noxious substances....5D is a crazy bid as it by passes 5C and shows a FAR better D suit. 5H is even worse as it by passes 5C and 5D. Double is the only bid if you are going to bid - and I would.

I am not smoking anything, noxious or otherwise;just trying to learn although perhaps I was too flippant.
My point is if double is the "only bid" then how can we say that it can "easily be wrong?'Does it not imply that many other bids are worth considering?
I also would like to know why double is not penalty unless ofcourse that happens to be your understanding with your favourite P.What does one do with ♠Axx
♥Q J 10 9 ♦Axx ♣ xxx?(only 11 points )
Lastly P knows nothing about my hand except that I probably have 13 points 2 defensive tricks and 3♦ or more.Why not tell him about my best suit?It is my best suit after all.With a far better ♦suit I would consider 6.
I know so many experts cannot be wrong yet....

[pbleighton]

"My point is if double is the "only bid" then how can we say that it can "easily be wrong?'Does it not imply that many other bids are worth considering?"

No. As Cherdano said:
"Double is the right bid, while it could easily turn out wrong on any specific hand. But any other bid is far more likely to turn out wrong, and so no other call is close."

That's why people preempt

Peter

[kenberg]

To say "Double might be wrong" is to say that it might work out badly,as of course it might. It's the right call to make, in the sense that it has the best chance of success.

As to 5D? It will at least end the auction, and probably the partnership. Since they are husband and wife, we must also consider the danger to their marriage. A 4S bid would ask partner to choose between spades and diamonds, a 5C bid asks partner to choose between clubs and diamonds, a 5D bid asks partner to choose between diamonds and diamonds. Bidding 5S over 5D, after passing over 4H, would not be adventurous it would be nuts. A double asks partner to choose among spades, clubs, and diamonds, leaving open the possibility of playing 4H doubled. This seems to be the best choice.

[pigpenz]

kenberg, on Dec 25 2006, 10:00 AM, said:

To say "Double might be wrong" is to say that it might work out badly,as of course it might. It's the right call to make, in the sense that it has the best chance of success.

As to 5D? It will at least end the auction, and probably the partnership. Since they are husband and wife, we must also consider the danger to their marriage. A 4S bid would ask partner to choose between spades and diamonds, a 5C bid asks partner to choose between clubs and diamonds, a 5D bid asks partner to choose between diamonds and diamonds. Bidding 5S over 5D, after passing over 4H, would not be adventurous it would be nuts. A double asks partner to choose among spades, clubs, and diamonds, leaving open the possibility of playing 4H doubled. This seems to be the best choice.

the wifey thing reallly has nothing to do with the problem it was a wink wink sidelight

i would double on the hand gives us chance for penalties, 4♠,5♣, and 5♦....anyother bid including pass is too unilateral

[P_Marlowe]

X, getting partner involved.
The mayor question is, how high do you play
neg. X, up to 3S, 4H or higher?

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

[quote name='zasanya' date='Dec 25 2006, 09:29 AM'] <snip>
I am either totally misunderstanding what you are saying or else you are smoking noxious substances....5D is a crazy bid as it by passes 5C and shows a FAR better D suit. 5H is even worse as it by passes 5C and 5D. Double is the only bid if you are going to bid - and I would.[/QUOTE]
I am not smoking anything, noxious or otherwise;just trying to learn although perhaps I was too flippant.
My point is if double is the "only bid" then how can we say that it can "easily be wrong?'
<snip> [/QUOTE]
The mayor risk is, that partner maybe broke,
nothing tells you that he holds a few values,
but than nothing tells you that he does not.

Any other call is a lot less flexible, since
you will give a wrong picture about your hand,
either you show a strong one suiter, or a strong
two suiter.
Double may or may not be bassed on a 3-suiter,
but partner will bid his own long suit, in case he cant
pass, and you know, you will have some play.

And he may even decide to defend 4H, which maybe
the easiest way to get plus.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenberg]

pigpenz, on Dec 25 2006, 10:30 AM, said:

kenberg, on Dec 25 2006, 10:00 AM, said:

To say "Double might be wrong" is to say that it might work out badly,as of course it might. It's the right call to make, in the sense that it has the best chance of success.

As to 5D? It will at least end the auction, and probably the partnership. Since they are husband and wife, we must also consider the danger to their marriage. A 4S bid would ask partner to choose between spades and diamonds, a 5C bid asks partner to choose between clubs and diamonds, a 5D bid asks partner to choose between diamonds and diamonds. Bidding 5S over 5D, after passing over 4H,  would not be adventurous it would be nuts. A double  asks partner to choose among spades, clubs, and diamonds, leaving open the possibility of playing 4H doubled. This seems to be the best choice.

the wifey thing reallly has nothing to do with the problem it was a wink wink sidelight

i would double on the hand gives us chance for penalties, 4♠,5♣, and 5♦....anyother bid including pass is too unilateral

Sure, I understand. But husband/wife partnerships always supply the opportunity for a little fun. And it's not totally out of the question that the husband figures that he should play all of the hands, I have known this to happen even in partnerships where it is apparent to everyone that the reverse is true.

I suppose "the wink/wink" suggests that maybe there were some shenanigans going on beyond the frequent male tendency to grab all the hands. Always possible of course but I would take seriously the fact that someone aware of partner's holding would also be aware of the effects of a double, so there is no need to make a call most of us find odd. It's a mistake to be naive but also a mistake to not allow for odd choices by someone who just sees things differently. And it's the Christmas season, so ho ho ho.

Anyway, just out of curiosity, how does 6C fare, and was it bid?

Merry Christmas, Happy Chanuka (spell checker objects to this but it is the currently accepted spelling, is it not?), and Happy Holidays to all.

Ken

[EricK]

zasanya, on Dec 25 2006, 02:29 PM, said:

I also would like to know why double is not penalty unless ofcourse that happens to be your understanding with your favourite P.What does one do with ♠Axx
♥Q J 10 9 ♦Axx ♣ xxx?(only 11 points )

With the hand you quote, you pass. Yes you will beat 4♥ (unless declarer has void, and partner can't supply a trick), but since partner has passed over 4♥, you probably aren't missing anything much your way, so the loss from not playing a penalty double will be minimal. But if you play a penalty double, you can lose heavily on hands where you have a take out double distribution (like the one in the OP!). Why force yourself to guess in an auction where there is probably some sort of game or slam your way?

So playing take out doubles you lose slightly when you have a penalty double hand, and playing penalty doubles you lose more heavily when you have a take out double hand. But that is not the end of it. Since LHO has advertised a long suit, you are far more likely to have a take out double type hand than a penalty double hand! Playing take out doubles won't work all the time, but it will work more often than playing penalty doubles, and that is all you can ask for a method - especially when you are at the 4 level.

[cherdano]

zasanya, on Dec 25 2006, 04:29 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Dec 25 2006, 05:07 AM, said:

"What is wrong with 5D with dbl signifying penalty and no desire to compete (if you are not ambitious)?and 5♥ if you are ambitious? "

I am either totally misunderstanding what you are saying or else you are smoking noxious substances....5D is a crazy bid as it by passes 5C and shows a FAR better D suit. 5H is even worse as it by passes 5C and 5D. Double is the only bid if you are going to bid - and I would.

I am not smoking anything, noxious or otherwise;just trying to learn although perhaps I was too flippant.
My point is if double is the "only bid" then how can we say that it can "easily be wrong?'Does it not imply that many other bids are worth considering?
I also would like to know why double is not penalty unless ofcourse that happens to be your understanding with your favourite P.What does one do with ♠Axx
♥Q J 10 9 ♦Axx ♣ xxx?(only 11 points )
Lastly P knows nothing about my hand except that I probably have 13 points 2 defensive tricks and 3♦ or more.Why not tell him about my best suit?It is my best suit after all.With a far better ♦suit I would consider 6.
I know so many experts cannot be wrong yet....

It's always dangerous to claim what is standard, but here I am pretty confident that pretty much all experts would treat this double as closer to takeout than penalty; I suppose a majority would call it "card-showing". This means you have to pass when you have a trump stack penalty double as in your example, but
1. these hands are rare,
2. you are only giving up a bigger plus, but you will still go plus (while as a takeout double will often enable you to go plus instead of minus,by leaving the final decision about strain to partner), and
3. since partner's double is also takeout: when you have a trump stack, he WILL be short and can often make a takeout double (which you will obviously pass).

Of course no method works all the time, but it seems takeout doubles work more often than any other method.

A good book on the topic is Robson/Segal's Partnership Bidding at Bridge (google for it, it's AFAIK legally available as PDF).