[csdenmark]

Looks rhetoric to me Ken.

In case your question really is serious the options for 5HcP, 4♠ are: Pass, 1♠, 1NT.

[kenberg]

Claus,

I almost didn't post the question because I agree it sounds like rhetoric, or argumentative, or something bad. I did not intend it so. I was looking at:


Copy:
Aha - here it is. It is not so detailed.


1♥=12-16HcP, 4+♥. Canape' style - may have longer
1♥-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer
1♥-3♠=Preempt [/QUOTE]

End copy

Now I don't know what "round", in this context, means. I was surprised that the 2S response, as well as the 1H opener, was Canape style but I browsed a little on the web and I get the impression that this was really the case. Possibly this is the explanation of 2S on four cards? A responder with, say, five points, four spades and six diamonds responds to 1H with 2S, planning to run to diamonds if doubled. It seems a bit crazy to me, but no one ever confused me with Garozzo so I'll keep an open mind. It does seem clearly stated that 2S over 1H promises 5+ hcp and 4+ spades. My understanding of the + sign is that it means they may or may not have the plus.

One encounters situations like this from time to time. An explanation appears so bizarre that it seems there must be some misunderstanding. But then, maybe they mean it. It's difficult to ask a question that does not sound argumentative. Assuming the "1♥-2♠=5+HcP, 4+♠, Round. Canape' - may have longer" is not a typo, I am curious as to how it was used and how it worked.

Maybe "round" means one round force? On 5 hcps it seems odd, especially since canape means only "may have longer", not "does have longer".

Finally, and I admit this is a bit argumentative since you are an FD advocate, I have found this to be a frequent problem with FD. The written explanation makes good sense to the practitioners but it is not so transparent to the reader. If the above FD entry does not say that the 2S bid might be made on four cards and five points, how am I misreading it? I applaud the efforts of bbo to go beyond the wholly inadequate old bbo cc, but I think the FD idea still needs some work.

Best wishes,
Ken

[hrothgar]

[quote name='kenberg' date='Jan 18 2007, 05:35 PM'] Claus,

I almost didn't post the question because I agree it sounds like rhetoric, or argumentative, or something bad. I did not intend it so. I was looking at:


Copy:
Aha - here it is. It is not so detailed.


1[he]=12-16HcP, 4+[he]. Canape' style - may have longer
1[he]-2[sp]=5+HcP, 4+[sp], Round. Canape' - may have longer
1[he]-3[sp]=Preempt [/QUOTE]

End copy [/QUOTE]
As is often the case, two separate issues are being confused here:

1. What do the auctions

1[he] - (P) - 2[he] and

P - (P) - 1[he] - (P)
2[sp]

show playing Blue Club?

The first auction is decided not a canape sequence. This is a strong jump shift in the Blue Club style, promising a good hand with a self sufficient suit. Blue Club conciously differentiates between suits like

AKJT963 - suitable for a strong jump *****

and

KJT9762 - typically shown via a canape reverse by responder. (Responder would temporize with a 2[cl] or 2[di] over the 1[he] opening, and then show Spades to indicate game forcing values with a broken suit.

My books on Blue Club don't go into detail about passed hand bidding, so its hard to say precisely what the second auction would show. Personally, I think a fit jump makes the most sense.

2. The second issue that needs to be discussed is whether the FD strings that Claus suggests represent appropriate disclosure. I think that the text strings themselves are inaccurate. I certainly can't construct a hand that would jump to 2[sp] on 4 card support....

[csdenmark]

Ken - first please remember bridge is a game about MAJORs. Whether you hold them or not. This important point is all too easy to forget playing standard systems. All strong systems are based on that and try in different ways to cope with this. Some systems are created in that way your openings discloses a fairly exact holding of majors.

This means something about your question 4♠+6♦.

First to the resources:

The system book is: Benito Garozzo/Leon Yallouze: The Blue Club
Containment of this book I have extracted into files ready to use available from bridgeFILES web-sites.



There are 2 big books containing a wide range of examples:
Pietro Forquet: Bridge with the Blue Team
Benito Garozzo/Pietro Forquet: The Italian Blue Team Bridge Book



Round is my term for forcing, others use the notation F1/F2 - same meaning.

As I stated earlier 1♥-2♠ is an invitation(8-11HcP, normally 5+♠). Holding 5HcP to partners possible MAX(16HcP) you want to find a safe spot for a part score. What you bid depends therefore of your expectations coming from partner.

If your holding is 2♥ you keep the bidding open. Bid 1♠ and pass partners ♥ rebid. If partner comes up with ♣ you introduce your ♦. If you cannot stand 2♥ as a contract you close the auction via pass/1NT.

[hrothgar]

csdenmark, on Jan 18 2007, 06:59 PM, said:

There are 2 big books containing a wide range of examples:
Pietro Forquet: Bridge with the Blue Team
Benito Garozzo/Pietro Forquet: The Italian Blue Team Bridge Book

As I stated earlier 1♥-2♠ is an invitation(8-11HcP, normally 5+♠). Holding 5HcP to partners possible MAX(16HcP) you want to find a safe spot for a part score. What you bid depends therefore of your expectations coming from partner.

Claus: Do you bother to read the books that you cite?

Page 56 of "The Blue Club" by Garozzo and Yallouze provides a description of the auction 1♥ - 2♠.
The bid is clearly defined as game forcing.
There is even an example hand.

[kenberg]

Wait. The discussion seems to wobble back and forth between 1H-2S and pass-1H-2S. I assume the latter is not game forcing. It's too tough to trace back what the discussion was supposed to be, but it was the passed hand auction I was referring to.

Anyway, I'll say maybe one more word there. I realize that pass-1H-2S usually shows more than four spades, just as I realize that the major suits are important. (I'm not Garozzo, but ...). But there was this post, I am pretty sure it was from Claus, presenting what I took to be an FD card devised by him based on the Blue Club, that said after a passed hand, 1H-2S showed 4+ spades and 5+ points. Anyone interested, , probably no such person exists, can page back and see that this is not my hallucination. I referenced it twice so far asking about it and have been told, basically, that no one bids 2S on such a hand. Right. I believe that. I guess the answer, in the words of a former WH press secretary, is that the FD statement is no longer operative.

This thread is getting far too confusing for me. I am glad to hear, if I indeed am hearing, that Garozzo and all did not jump shift to 2S on five points and four spades. At any rate, as I am sure my partners will be glad to hear, I won't be doing it.

I am abandoning this thread while I still have a semblance of sanity.

Ken