[twcho]

IMP, NIL, The bidding went:
We No Ea So
-- -- 2D P
2H 3H Pa 4H
4S 5H Pa Pa
5S Pa Pa ?

2D is multi and 2H is P/C. Other bids all natural.

Is the final pass of North forcing? Don't think actual hand is relevant for that matter.

[ohioply]

Unless you have specifically discussed this kind of auction before with your partner I think it is non-forcing.

[pclayton]

No its not a FP, but it would be very unusual to let them play 5S undoubled.

[flytoox]

I would say this is forcing.

[helene_t]

A forcing pass applies whenever our auction has shown that the board belongs to us. This is approximately the same as saying that we have the (vast) majority of the HCPs. A simple rule is that a forcing pass applies when and only when we have forced to game.

Here, allthough the opps initial auction looks weak and the 3♥ overcall is constructive, the board may belong to the opps, especially since they have the "boss suit" (spades). Responder's 2♥ seems to be based on a good hand with shortness in hearts. And the raise to 4♥ does not show much stregth.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

pass is certainly nonforcing, but I would say,
just lay the red card and dont worry, if they make
it.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Free]

Not forcing, there hasn't been any bid that suggests real strength. 3♥ is constructive, ok, but 4♥ can be made with a weak hand.

[SoTired]

forcing pass. anytime our side voluntarily bids game it is a forcing pass. The 4H bid is a voluntary game bid. Does not matter that it was made on distributional values, partner is expecting strength equivalent and therefore the auction is forcing.

And partner's pass of 5S is a slam invitation.

[Al_U_Card]

pclayton, on Jan 23 2007, 01:41 AM, said:

No its not a FP, but it would be very unusual to let them play 5S undoubled.

Very. The raise to game with 4H confirms the values for game. Despite the vulnerability being even at white, they are clearly sacrificing against your freely bid game. It is clear that the pass of 5S shows both offense and defense so it is up to the 4H bidder to apply the axe (likely) or bid 6 to make if he is really offensively arranged.

[jikl]

Quote

Responder's 2♥ seems to be based on a good hand with shortness in hearts. And the raise to 4♥ does not show much stregth.

I am guessing something different, I think West may have something like 3♥ and 5♠ and has bid very poorly or very well. We have all tried to get doubled at some stage when we are the boss of the auction and know partner is not allowed to make another bid.

Sean

[Al_U_Card]

Yes, genius bids work well, when they work......most often they aren't even genius but just masterminding.....perhaps our friend with the "mystery" hand is one such individual....but the other three participants each had something to say so.....who is the liar?

[FrancesHinden]

I have a specific agreement after a multi which is that if we overcall in one major, then a bid of the other major is a cue bid (although a jump in the other major is natural).

So, for example,

(2D) 2S (P) 3H

is a good raise to 3S or more

(2D) P (2H) 3H
(P) 3S

is a good raise to 4H

With that agreement, there is no forcing pass, because 2nd seat didn't bid 3S (which would set up a forcing pass).

[jtfanclub]

twcho, on Jan 23 2007, 12:06 AM, said:

IMP, NIL, The bidding went:
We No Ea So
-- -- 2D P
2H 3H Pa 4H
4S 5H Pa Pa
5S Pa Pa ?

2D is multi and 2H is P/C. Other bids all natural.

Is the final pass of North forcing? Don't think actual hand is relevant for that matter.

Someday, I'll learn better....

Most people are going to be in 4♠ undoubled, I think....the auction going 2♠ P 4♠ passed out (partner couldn't X 4♠ on this auction, I don't think he could on the other auction).

If it makes 5, we've lost nothing. If it makes exactly 4, we just got 470 better than the field. And if it makes less, we just got 50. So...if I think I'm better than the field, and I don't have it set in my hand, I'd pass.

To me, a pass of 4♠ is forcing, but partner's 5♥ bid makes me nervous. Did he do it because he doesn't believe we can set 4♠? I hate to punish partner for coming in with a great suit but little else. And if he had enough where he thought we might make 6, he would have found a different bid than 5♥, wouldn't he?

So I think the FP situation was turned off by the 5♥ bid.

[Al_U_Card]

Some pretty good hands can pass that 2D bid. Doesn't bidding 5H over 4S say that you have the moose that you might not have had with 3H (all on your own btw) because you didnt give pard a say on the 4S bid....When the opps are zoomin' ya, you take the push, when you have the other hand, let pard show his "true" hand because he may have bid 4H on bugwash.

[pclayton]

SoTired, on Jan 23 2007, 05:56 AM, said:

forcing pass. anytime our side voluntarily bids game it is a forcing pass. The 4H bid is a voluntary game bid. Does not matter that it was made on distributional values, partner is expecting strength equivalent and therefore the auction is forcing.

(snip)

Wrong.

[mikeh]

For those who think that partner's pass of 5♠ is a slam try.... look back one round: over 4♠ what did partner bid? He bid 5♥. He CANNOT have a slam try hand...5♥ carried no hint of interest in slam, so how on earth can he suddenly try for slam when the opps carry on to the 5-level?

This inference is clear.

Had partner wanted to create a fp, he would have bid 4N or 5minor over 4♠: NOW pass of 5♠ is logically forcing.

As it is, as others have pointed out, the 4♠ bidder may have (and probably does have) a powerful hand short in ♥s: the type of hand that wants to aim low opposite the expected 2♥ opener but which becomes gf opposite a 2♠ opener while North holds a moderate hand with shape and a LOT of ♥s.

Also, as others have also pointed out, the raise to 4♥ actually denies a good hand.... whether one has Frances' specific agreement or not, S had lots of ways to show a good raise: 4minor would be unambiguously in support of ♥s... no way is S introducing a minor to play at the 4-level...

So regardless of your precise rules for determining fp or not, this one is logically non forcing.