[pclayton]

We play 12-14 NT's. Support doubles were (mostly) scrapped a few years ago. Now: 1x - (pass) - 1y - (2x) - double shows a 15-17 NT, but denies the ability to raise.

1x - (pass) - 1y - (1z) - double is support, but also shows the 15-17 NT.

Question: We now play a semi forcing 1N response. In a 12-14 NT context, how do you think:

1 major - (pass) - 1N - (2x) - dbl should be played?

Should 1 minor - (pass) - 1N - (2x) be any different?

I can see good arguments for both takeout and a balanced 15-17.

Thanks.

[mikeh]

This is an interesting thread because I play 11-14 in one partnership, in conjunction with support doubles and forcing nt responses to 1major.

A secondary question I throw out for your consideration: is it worth using one method when the opps bid a suit below opener's suit and another when they bid a suit above opener's?

Leaving that side, one of the problems, as I am sure you are aware, is that using the double to show 15-17 balanced, poses as many problems as it solves.

Thus, after, say, 1♦ [p] 1N [2♠] double: we could be doing this on:

xx AQJx KQxx Kxx or on AJ9x AQx Axxx Qx. How is partner supposed to know which we have?

At least the takeout meaning is unambiguous and the approach I recommend. We'd haul it out here on the first example, and on some weaker but more shapely hands, bearing in mind that we are forcing partner to the 3 level and he will always be balanced if we opened 1♣ (altho, in an approach used by many walsh type players, and others, he will be 8-10 or so in hcp) and usually balanced, and potentially very weak, over 1♦.

With the penalty double strong notrump, we have to pass. We have found that upside down tempo and attitude works best here: we pass quickly, looking bored and that invites a double while if we pass looking hestitant or hopeful, that bars partner.





(That last was a joke)

[Adebisi]

Hei! I think that after 1MAJ-P-1NT-2X DBl should be teakout, coz responder could have lenght in any 3 suits exc. 1st MAJ.After 1Min-P -1NT-2x responder cant have much lenght in MAJs, and if u here could have 15-17 NT so dbl should show that hand and also u need agreement what is difference between DBL and 2NT.

[jtfanclub]

pclayton, on Jan 25 2007, 05:03 PM, said:

1 major - (pass) - 1N - (2x) - dbl should be played?

Should 1 minor - (pass) - 1N - (2x) be any different?

I can see good arguments for both takeout and a balanced 15-17.

Thanks.

Uh-oh, I want to contradict myself.

I am assuming that 1 major (pass) 1NT (2x lower than 2 major) pass is forcing? I can't imagine that I'd ever want to pass it out.

My gut says that X needs to be penalty, either 15-17 balanced with good cards in his suit or 12-14 two suiter with my other suit being his suit. I want partner's balancing X to be takeout, and if I pass with a penalty oriented hand I can dream up hands where partner is stuck for a bid, and we end up in 2M in a 5-2 fit when we could have had them for a phone number.

On the other hand, after 1 minor (pass) 1NT (2x higher than 2 minor) pass shouldn't be forcing. Neither of us has shown a willingness to be in 2NT or 3 of the minor across a minimum, so passing it out is reasonable. Now X has to be takeout, because otherwise I have to go too high to make partner bid.

But I hate having these be different.

I guess my rule is, when we've already committed to an auction that could see us higher than the overcall even with minimum across minimum, pass should be takeout and X should be penalty. But if we haven't committed that high, pass should be not strong enough to bid and X should be takeout/extras.

[pclayton]

Currently (good, bad or indifferent) we play 2N is generally g/b in these auctions.

A double of a higher ranking suit shows the 18-19 hand.

I think I like Mike's suggestion that double should be takeout (in the 1x - p - 1N - 2y auction), but I wonder if a Garozzo 2-3 double is preferable.

[cherdano]

pclayton, on Jan 29 2007, 02:34 AM, said:

I think I like Mike's suggestion that double should be takeout (in the 1x - p - 1N - 2y auction), but I wonder if a Garozzo 2-3 double is preferable.

That suggestions surprises me a lot. I have only seen Garozzo 2/3 doubles in forcing auctions, and I can't imagine that they are workable in logically non-forcing auctions.

2/3 doubles means you have to pass with a singleton. This only works because partner, in turn, is forced to double with 2+ trumps (or bid something with a singleton). On the other hand, they only work because a pass implies a singleton (or 4+ trumps), which means opener could never pass holding 2 or 3 cards in their suit.

Arend