[han]

You open 1C, LHO overcalls 1S, partner passes and RHO bids 1NT. With which of these three hands would you not double?

[jdonn]

I would not double exactly two of them. I guess the answer is I DNE.

[Halo]

Double all three.

Is there some standard science to distinguish the hand types?

[pclayton]

Curiously worded poll as we enter the year of polling

[ArtK78]

I would not double on the hand with 6 solid clubs, because I am going plus in 1NT and partner is not likely to have a hand which would produce good play for game. If we were at favorable vul, then I wouldn't even care if we made game, since beating 1NT 3 tricks is almost as good as bidding and making 3NT.

The others I must double. I double with the first one since I can play in any of three suits and we might have a game in any of them. I double with the third one because it is just too powerful not to make a move forward. We might still have a game in hearts or notrump.

There is a case to be made for passing on the third one. If partner is bust, the double may not work very well.

It would be nice to know the vulnerability and the form of scoring.

[whereagles]

2nd is nice to pass and cash a load of clubs

[jtfanclub]

Justin...

Moving the cards around a bit: Ax AKJx QJT KJxx

Would you double with this?

[helene_t]

I'm with Justin.

Doubling with the third one would be ok if we had different agreements.

Doubling with the second one serves no purpose no matter what agreements we have.

[jdonn]

jtfanclub, on Dec 20 2007, 05:43 PM, said:

Justin...

Moving the cards around a bit:  Ax AKJx QJT KJxx

Would you double with this?

Having two cards in the suit you are takeout-doubling rather than three cards is a lot bigger change than "a bit".

[Fluffy]

I would double with none.

[awm]

Interesting that people seem to think this double is takeout of spades.

Partner heard the opening bid and didn't find a negative double or a raise of clubs. It seems likely that partner has either a really bad hand, a hand with some spade length/values but not enough for a 1NT free bid, or some kind of trap pass of spades. In the last case partner will probably come alive with a penalty double later, so it's the first two we need to worry about.

It seems like if partner has the really bad hand, we're probably in trouble anyway. But if partner has the mediocre hand (say 5-7 hcp) with some spades, then it is our opponents who are in trouble. Wouldn't we like to double 1NT rather than defend 1NT undoubled (if we pass partner will take us for our usual weak notrump and pass it out of course)?

I'd think double in this auction is mostly "cards" or "penalty" with perhaps some tendency to hold 18-19 balanced or the like rather than really being "takeout of spades." This would make the third hand a prototypical double, with the first hand being a reasonable double also. Hand number two seems a little silly to double, because while you can beat 1NT you're not that eager to hear partner penalize with a random six-count if they run to any other contract (okay besides 2♣) or to hear partner name a five-card red suit if he has the really bad hand.

[MickyB]

awm, on Dec 20 2007, 11:16 PM, said:

Partner heard the opening bid and didn't find a negative double or a raise of clubs. It seems likely that partner has either a really bad hand, a hand with some spade length/values but not enough for a 1NT free bid, or some kind of trap pass of spades.

He could have a fair few HCP with a 4=3=4=2 or similar with no spade stop. I guess you can argue that a 4=2=5=2 with small spades should bid 3♦ over 2♠, but I'm not convinced.

[pclayton]

Its takeout. So only #1 and thats a minimum.

[awm]

So the plan is really to open 1♣ on a balanced 18-19, then pass throughout the auction when opponents start bidding? The auction given doesn't show a lot of values for opponents -- you could easily still have game on values and will frequently hold the majority of the strength. Partner is unlikely to balance on this auction with a hand that couldn't bid over 1♠, even if holding something like 5-7 hcp, since he will expect a weak notrump opposite. And even if the opponents bid on over 1NT (say 1♣-1♠-P-1nt-P-2♦-P-P) coming in now is potentially more dangerous since you don't have the relative safety of 2♣ on a 4-4 or 4-3 fit anymore when partner's broke. It seems like passing with balanced 18-19 will quite often miss the opportunity for a substantial penalty, sometimes defending a partscore when our side is cold for game.

I don't think anyone would seriously double in this auction with something like a 1-4-3-5 13-count (let me know if I'm wrong), so the question is really whether double should show extras with takeout shape or just extras with a fairly flat hand. In both cases, when partner has some cards he is normally going to pass. And in both cases, when partner is broke with five cards in some red suit, or broke with four clubs, he's going to make the same call. The only time "takeout" really seems to benefit you is that partner can pull to 2-red on a four-card suit when he is broke with no five-card suit and no good club fit. Note that if partner has 3♣+4♦ (for example) he's probably bidding 2♣ anyway since a "takeout double" is more likely to have five clubs than four diamonds, so it's really just when partner has a 4(43)2 hand. I'd also argue that the strong balanced hand is more likely than the strong takeout hand, since opponents have not shown a real fit in this bidding, and that partner holding a few points (say 4-7 hcp, so you have the majority of values) is not that unlikely despite both opponents bidding (it is normal to overcall 1♠ on 8 or even 7 high, see the other thread about overcalling, and the 1NT advance doesn't show more than 8 or so either).

Note that this is quite different from the auction 1♠-P-1NT-X which everyone plays as takeout, since the opening side usually has about half the values here, and if they don't the 1NT bidder is usually messing around with a spade fit (so someone on our side has a takeout double). It's also quite different from 1♣-1♠-P-P-X where you need to double on some fairly minimum opening hands in order to protect partner's possible penalty pass (or hand with a long diamond suit). It seems more similar to 1♣-1NT-P-P where it is quite normal to double with 18-19 high...

[foo]

Hannie, on Dec 20 2007, 04:37 PM, said:

You open 1C, LHO overcalls 1S, partner passes and RHO bids 1NT. With which of these three hands would you not double?

1)  x KQTx AJxx AQJx
2)  Ax Qxx xx AKQJ9x
3)  QJT AKJx Ax KJxx

#1 is a clear X.

#2 will likely set 1N in hand. OTOH, what do we need in Pard's hand to make a Game?
Make the hand xx_Qxx_Ax_AKQJ9x and I'm =very= worried about Us missing a game if I pass.
Regardless, this hand type is not a X.

#3 is a clear pass. Yes, we have a 2N rebid in an ordinary auction. But once They both bid +and bid NT themselves+, the "this hand is a misfit! Beware!" warning light should be flashing. As Justin has correctly noted, on a bad day they will actually make 1N even though we are holding this good hand.

[Apollo81]

I also think it's a takeout double, but it shows enough high cards to be converted whenever pard can tell that spades aren't coming in. As such I'd double on #1 (a minimum) and pass the other two.

Let's say for the sake of argument that I know partner will take the double as penalty. #1 is a hand where I *might* consider a penalty double, but I wouldn't on the others. I don't want to scare them out of NT on #2, and I think they will make #3 since the spades are breaking.

[jdonn]

Adam what about when partner is 3442? 2443 for that matter and you doubled with 4333 and instead of defending 1NT which probably wasn't making you ran to a 3-3 fit in a minor. 3352 and you doubled with 4324? This is simply a takeout double. It's possible to get fixed with 18-19 and partner on a moderate hand that had no bid, but it's much more likely to get your side in trouble with these doubles and turn plusses into minuses left and right.

[awm]

My expectation is that partner usually passes with some points. He's only running with really bad hands. I suspect that even if double is "takeout" it will usually be right for partner to pass with 4-7 points or so (since it is "takeout with extras" not "takeout with any hand"). By playing double as penalty-oriented I'd suggest that:

(1) We will often gain when opener has 18-19 balanced without takeout shape. Yes, occasionally we catch partner with garbage and no obvious place to run, and we get -180 or -280 or whatever defending 1NTX. But I think there are a lot more times when we score up +200, +300, or +500 defending 1NTX. Some of these times we had a game our way, and would get an embarrassingly bad score if we passed out 1NT with no double.

(2) On the hands with takeout shape where partner has some points, we will defend 1NTX. This will often be better than running to our best fit at the two-level in any case.

(3) On the hands where we have takeout shape and partner has garbage and a five-card red suit, I still expect partner to bid it. This will play fine opposite the takeout shape. It will also play okay opposite the strong balanced hand; it might be a 5-2 fit but with partner holding garbage we probably weren't beating 1NT anyway, and playing in the weak hand's long suit will give us some entries. In fact if I have 18-19 flat and partner has 0-2, it wouldn't surprise me if we tended to do better on average in two of a five card suit from the weak hand than we would do defending 1NT undoubled.

(4) On hands where we have takeout shape and partner has garbage with no five-card red suit and no four clubs, I admit that I'll get worse results. It is no longer safe for partner to run to a four-card red suit (since doubler might have the balanced hand) and so we may end up defending 1NTX on these hands. Of course, running to the four-card red suit is not necessarily a picnic either (could easily be 4-3 fit) and the opponents will often rescue us (usually they are not eager to play 1NTX on 20-21 hcp even if in principle they would make).