[sceptic]

Hi all

I am posting this on someone elses behalf, can I have comments on the 2 club opener and if you feel as I do, that 2clubs is a poor choice, please can you explain why and what action you would have for bidding this hand and continuations

also could you explain what can go wrong by bidding 2 clubs (and if you feel I am wrong, please feel free to be as harsh as you like) I never try teaching btw, I am not good enough
#
Thank you

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

Pass 2♣ Pass 2♦
Pass 2♥ Pass 3NT
Pass Pass Pass

H6 HA H7 H2
D3 D4 DQ D7
D2 D9 DA D6
DK D8 D5 C7
DJ C2 DT C4
C3 C5 CA C8
CQ S5 CT C6
C9 H3 CK S3
CJ S4 H4 H8
HK S6 H9 HT
HQ S8 S2 HJ
H5 SJ S7 S9
ST SQ SK SA

[matmat]

don't much care for 2♣. it's a three suited hand that is really hard to convey after a start at that level (unless you have some good tools), and it is only a 21 count, right? I'd probably open 1♦ and splinter over 1♥, jump-shift into clubs over any other response. I'd consider 3NT over p's 1NT, except that just shows a good hand with long diamonds, so that is out, and 2NT feels like an underbid.

That said, I think south did very poorly in the bidding themselves. 2♦ is of course, fine, but holding an 11 count with three card support for p's presumed 5 card major and game forcing hand 3nt is just plain wrong. a single heart raise would be good, for instance.

edit -- if p insists on giving me a strong diamond raise (whether 2♦ or 3♦ depends on system), i'll auto-splinter in spades.
and also, if p enjoys not raising my suits, but bidding NT, I'll probably stick them in 6NT over a 2NT response.

[FrancesHinden]

Strong 4441 hands are extremely difficult to bid in a standard system. There is never a satisfactory way of dealing with them unless you reserve a specific piece of system for them - and then you have 'wasted' some system because strong 4441s are also extremely rare.

That said, the most common way of dealing with them is to treat them as balanced, either opening 2NT or openeing 2C and rebidding some number of NT. (Personally I don't like this unless the singleton is an honour, but it does simplify the auction).

So IF North didn't want to open at the 1-level, his best opening bid is 2NT.

I would open the North hand 1D.

The problem with opening 2 clubs is that it shows a better hand. Opening 2C and rebidding 2-major
i) shows at least 5 cards in the bid major
ii) shows a hand that has game in its own hand (or nearly has game in its own hand)

Opening 2C and rebidding 2H has two big problems related to the above
i) You will play in hearts when that is wrong
ii) you will get too high

On the actual hand, South was insane, he has close to a slam force opposite a 2C - 2D - 2H start to the auction, but that slam is likely to be 6H which goes off.

If you want an easy auction, how about

1D - 3D
6D - P

3D = limit raise, 4 trumps and invitational values

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the main trouble with using a strong 2C opener
with 2-suited hands, and this holds true for 3-suited
hands as well, is, that quite often you will be forced
to bid your 2nd suit at the 4 level.
Say you have 5 spades and 5 diamonds, and
responder has hearts, the bidding will develop
as follows:

2C (1) - 2D (2)
2S (3) - 3H (4)
4D (5)

(1) strong artificial
(2) waiting, say the suit is Qxxxx
(3) openers 1st suit
(4) responders suit
(5) openers 2nd suit

=>

You opened the bidding with 2C to keep the bidding low,
but opener was forced to bid on the 4 level to finish the
description of the distribution he holds.
And at this point there is still no agreed fit, i.e. the space
to explore slam is now really dimished.

=>

You open at the 1 level, risking that the hand gets passed out,
but if partner / opponents bid, you are better placed, since the
bidding will be at a lower level.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Tola18]

Oh may.
Having decent 11 points opposite a 2C bidder, you shall not hope to make 3NT with Gods help. You shall think about bidding and making slam.
(Although 3NT happens to be quite playable here, slam not being ironclad - not with hearts uneven distributed).
Besides, chances are excellent there should be play in hearts.

This for responder.

Opener.
Good 21 points is usually enough for a 2-bid.
But the 4441 are tricky.
1. The points getting full value first when you do have found good fit.
So my advice is always to take away 2 points in the beginning. Add them back (and some for ruffing values) firstly when you have found a good trump-fit.
2. This bidding as done shows usually a good 5+ suit. Thus a fit of xxx is enough for positive support. The responder should normally bid 3H...

3. Bidding the 4441 you cant be sure if the fit is on 4 or on 3... This is one reason more to open with 1 in a suit. If partner pass, you dont have any slam and even game is not probable. If partner bids something, you will find some good solution.

We do see, 4H will go home on sheer rawforce, but the otherwise normal 6 H will probably be a disaster, with the singelton on wrong hand. Even with the trumphs less hostile distributed, say 42, 6H is bad. But a 41 break would make.


Here, hearts are very mean distributed. Heart slam would be difficult also with 5-3 and 5-0.... But a diamond slam is a good bet...

So funny and oddly enough, here do we have an example when two different wrongs makes one right - and NS DO have a playable contract....

[Walddk]

I echo most of what Frances said although I think 2NT is a better response to 1♦ than 3♦. 2NT should imply diamond support because responder bypassed all other suit. I concede that responder might be 3334 with weakish clubs for a 2NT response, but that is easily taken care of when opener rebids 3♣.

My preferred (and simple) auction to 6♦ is

1♦ - 2N
3♣ - 3♦
6♦

or if you want to be a little scientific: 4NT over 3♦ to check keycards. Even better is Kickback (4♦). That gives you room to ask for ♦Q if responder has one ace.

Roland

[matmat]

Walddk, on Jan 24 2008, 06:10 AM, said:

I echo most of what Frances said although I think 2NT is a better response to 1♦ than 3♦. 2NT should imply diamond support because responder bypassed all other suit. I concede that responder might be 3334 with weakish clubs for a 2NT response, but that is easily taken care of when opener rebids 3♣.

My preferred (and simple) auction to 6♦ is

1♦ - 2N
3♣ - 3♦
6♦

or if you want to be a little scientific: 4NT over 3♦ to check keycards. Even better is Kickback (4♦). That gives you room to ask for ♦Q if responder has one ace.

Roland

responder could be 3325 for a 2N call. but as you say, then 3♣ takes care of the problem.

i guess i'd be happy with either 2n or an inverted diamond raise if available; 3♦ just eats a lot of room and isn't that great on a balanced hand...

[skjaeran]

I'd prefer to open this hand at the 1-level; systemically I'd then open 1♣.

Our sequence would start:
1♣ - 1NT (10-12)
2♦ - 3♦

After that we should have an easy ride to 6♦.

[inquiry]

I will make a plug again for the concept of including the strong three suiters in the 2♣ opening bid with a 2NT continuation to show them (see chris rydal's webpages, or my post on this subject here in this forum). Of course, you need to play a mexican 2♦ or a multi 2♦ that includes bid balanced hands if you use this method. You would have had success on this one using that method.

[font=Courier]

Scoring: IMP


West North East South

 Pass   2♣   Pass 2♦
 Pass   2NT  Pass 3♣]
 Pass   3♥   Pass 3♠
 Pass   3NT   Pass 6♦
 Pass   Pass   Pass

---

2NT = three suiter
3♣ = tell me about your hand
3♥ = short spade, 3 or 4 losers (1 is ♠, 1 in ♦, 2 in ♣)
3♠ = ask distribution and losers
3NT = 1-4-4-4 with four losers
6♦ = i have ♦Q and ♣AQ covering three of your four losers. We lose something. I could have asked for controls with a 4♠ bid.

Forum post on this topic include 4441 and 5440 hands in forcing 2C....., and
More on 4441 or 4450 hands and 2C

Without such a method, i think openign 1♦ is the best option on this hand.

[awm]

Why is it wrong to open 2♣ with the north hand?

When you open 2♣, most of the time partner will bid 2♦. This leaves you with two options. You can rebid 2♥, but now partner will take you for a five-card suit. He might well raise your hearts on three cards, and in general you could get to a bad 6♥ contract when you'd be better off in a minor suit.

Alternately you can rebid 2NT. But this jumps the auction to the 2NT level without really describing (or perhaps with misdescribing) your hand. This will make it hard to find a minor suit fit for slam. If 3NT is right (and partner quite often will raise 2NT to 3NT) then partner needs to have spade stuff. In this case probably 3NT from partner's side will be better anyway to avoid the spade lead through.

Alternately, if you open in a minor suit you will very rarely miss a game. If partner can't bid over your 1♦ opening, it's rare that you will make a game contract with this hand in any case. And opponents will often bid (they have lots of spades probably) to "save you" in any case. Assuming that partner doesn't pass 1♦, you have a much easier time finding a minor suit fit after this opening and may get the chance to show all three suits below 3NT.

What's the problem with south's bidding?

Often a 2♣ opener will deliver 22+ points. No, it doesn't absolutely promise 22+ points, but that's the balanced range and should be considered a "normal" 2♣ opening. The lighter hands that open 2♣ often have useful distribution. Holding 11 points opposite 22, you should bid 6NT. If partner has the lighter hand (including the 5+♥ he showed by rebidding 2♥) then you will often have play for either 6NT (running the heart suit) or 6♥. At a minimum, south must try to get to slam. A 3NT bid here could be some six-count with scattered queens, and I'd expect opener to usually pass it.

What's the best contract?

The right contract on these hands is 6♦. Basically you lose a spade, ruff a spade in dummy, pull trumps, and claim. Note that diamonds were never even mentioned by either player on the bidding, and yet slam in the suit is excellent. This, as much as anything, indicates that something went terribly wrong.

[TheoKole]

Hi Wayne,

Wth my regular partner, we play this type of hand as part of our 2 ♦ Multi bid,
(weak in a major, or 2 NT opener, or 4441 16 to 22 points).

Our bidding would go,
2 ♦ -> 2 ♠ (medium strength relay) -> 3 ♥ (4441 short ♠) ->
3 ♠ (asks number of controls A = 2, K = 1; first step is 0-2 then 3, 4 ...) ->
4 NT (7 controls) -> 6 ♦ (something is missing)

Cheers,

Theo