[vkh]

With an overcall hand of 12pts or more I prefer to bid 1 diamond, even if short, if my right hand opponent is the dealer and opens 1 club and I have no 5 card major. My card is marked for expected minimum length of 3 for 1 diamond. My regular partner (wife) and I normally play best minor. My partner and I have a standing agreement to pass the other's minor opening if they do not have sufficient points (6-9) for a response. The above has happened twice in the past 6 months - both times we ended up with top boards and both times the director was called and the play allowed. Both times my partner did not know what I was doing and refuses to accept this oddity in bidding. Both times my explaination to the director was that it was a psych bid. Were the directors correct? When does a psych bid turn into an alertable bid? Since my partner refuses to accept this oddity and annouce the bid as "possibly could be as few as 0" can I announce it prior to play since I know my partner will not announce it during play?

Thank you for you comments.

[P_Marlowe]

You are mixing up two things.

The card usally only says something about the
expected length of an opening bid.
Those length have nothing to do with the min
length required for an overcall.

I dont know the requirements, but I suspect if
you regular overcall 1D with only 3 cards, this
is brown sticker or HUM, i.e. forbidden unless
you play rare tournements.

If your partner does not know this, this will be
viewed as a psych, psych bids are ok, although
you should make sure that your partnership
does not use undisclosed agreements.

If I would go into semantics, I would say you
mislead the director, which raises ethical issues,
since I could read your statement as you like to
do it (regular ?!), but claimed it was a psych, but
since you bring it up here, I think you are honest
.-). please no offense.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[vkh]

Thank you for your comments. We are both relatively new duplicate players. I didn't know that it was unusual that a 1 diamond overcall only promised 3 diamonds. With a 2 diamond overcall we do promise at least 4 good diamonds.

Regardless I do want to let opps know that I have the tendancy to make the short diamond overcalls at the one level and know that my partner will not alert when I overcall 1 diamond because my partner refuses to believe that anyone would really do that!! Knowing that it will not be alerted is it appropriate to annouce this oddity before the play and will that keep it legal?

[P_Marlowe]

vkh, on May 5 2008, 08:30 AM, said:

Thank you for your comments.  We are both relatively new duplicate players.  I didn't know that it was unusual that a 1 diamond overcall only promised 3 diamonds.  With a 2 diamond overcall we do promise at least 4 good diamonds. 

Regardless I do want to let opps know that I have the tendancy to make the short diamond overcalls at the one level and know that my partner will not alert when I overcall 1 diamond because my partner refuses to believe that anyone would really do that!!  Knowing that it will not be alerted is it appropriate to annouce this oddity before the play and will that keep it legal?

Hi,

#1 I am just a club TL in Germany, i.e. I dont know
ACBL law.

#2 prealerting will help with disclosure, but you may
play certain tournaments, which have restriction
which treatments / conventions are allowed, and
which not.
And even if you prealert certain bids, you have
still to alert them.
The prealert allowes them to discuss certain defences
beforehand.

#3 Just because your partner does not accept this
treatment, does not mean he cant refuse to alert.
The alert is something he owes the opponents,
additional he will adjust his bidding or his defence,
because he will know, that such an holding is possible.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

Sometimes you just have to pqass, even with an opening hand.

[LH2650]

You have about reached the point where you are considered to have an agreement, and can no longer claim that your bid is psychic. My reading of the ACBL General Convention Chart is that your diamond bid is conventional and illegal. Even your 2♦ overcall requires an alert if 4 card length is expected.

[rbforster]

vkh - your bidding is "unusual" and hence your partner should be convinced to alert it appropriately assuming you agree to continue your 1♦ overcalls this way. As for whether or not this is a convention allowed where you play, you'd have to tell us what country you're in and maybe others can say more at that point.

[vkh]

I am on the East Coast of the United States. My partner thinks I'm crazy and will not accept this line of play and refuses to alert but I am rather agressive. My partner will also pass me out putting me at risk if she doesn't have the points to respond. Knowing she won't alert is it legal to pre-alert?

[ArtK78]

I just cannot fathom why you insist on making this bid when your partner tells you that she will not play it.

I am on the East Coast of the US also, and I would find an agreement to overcall 1♦ on as few as 3 diamonds to be very unusual. I doubt that it is illegal, but I don't see the benefit to it.

I also find that the idea of overcalling 2♦ on as few as four cards by agreement to be highly unusual, but not illegal. Again, I don't see the benefit to doing so.

If your partner refuses to alert the 1♦ or 2♦ overcall, you are going to have serious problems. And a pre-alert of the "agreement" will not cure the failure to alert, although the opponents may have trouble making an argument that they were unaware of your methods.

You also stated that your partner will also "pass me out putting me at risk if she doesn't have the points to respond." Does this mean that you intend the 1♦ overcall as forcing? If the 1♦ overcall is forcing and can be made on as few as three cards, it may not be legal. I have never heard of anyone playing such a treatment, so I am totally unfamiliar with it.

[mikeh]

vkh, on May 5 2008, 10:02 AM, said:

I am on the East Coast of the United States.  My partner thinks I'm crazy and will not accept this line of play and refuses to alert but I am rather agressive.  My partner will also pass me out putting me at risk if she doesn't have the points to respond.  Knowing she won't alert is it legal to pre-alert?

Sorry, but you and your partner are both partially right and partially wrong.

If I understand your bidding, you will overcall 1♦ with 4=4=1=4 or even 4=4=0=5 so long as you have 12 hcp or more.

With all respect, and knowing that you are fairly new to duplicate, this is 'crazy', and your partner is correct. There are a number of reasons why this approach is 'crazy', even tho I am sure that it generates good boards on occasion.... try opening 3N on every hand where you are dealer, and you will get some wonderful scores, to go with a lot of bad ones. Your approach is not as bad as that, but it is in the same ballpark

Where your partner is wrong, and you are right, is that your treatment is alertable... assuming that it is legal.... and I am not the least bit sure of that.. my quick review of the general convention chart suggests that the powers that be didn't even anticipate that anyone would come up with this method... but I lean to thinking that it is illegal even if you alert.

My advice.. buy a copy of Mike Lawrence's book on overcalls. That sounds condescending, but I think it will open your eyes to more normal methods, and you will have far fewer problems with partner, opponents and directors

[rbforster]

vkh, on May 5 2008, 10:02 AM, said:

My partner thinks I'm crazy and will not accept this line of play and refuses to alert but I am rather agressive.

Before I get into technicalities, I think you need to have a conversation with your partner about your bidding ideas. If you want to make this 1♦ overcall whenever you have a 12 point hand and no 5 card major, it will come up fairly often. You'd can't just keep claiming it's a psych when it's your system. Either your partner should accept this method and agree to play it, or they won't agree to play it in which case you should only make the bid rarely as a psych.

vkh, on May 5 2008, 10:02 AM, said:

I am on the East Coast of the United States.

In the US, club games may not care if you play special methods like this although you might ask the director. In an ACBL tournament setting, for reasons that are somewhat technical you can play this 1♦ overcall only if the opponents' 1♣ was artificial in some way, such as a strong club (like precision) or a short club (could be only 2 clubs with 4=4=3=2 shape).

Alternatively if you want to get into the bidding with these hands, you could adopt the "Italian style" of off-shape takeout doubles at least over 1♣. In the ACBL, you're allowed to have a double mean anything you want (but do alert it if it's unusual). For example you could have X show 12+ points and 4=4 in the majors (4=3 or 3=4 too?) but nothing about diamonds. You'd want to think about what diamond bids by partner after this would mean, but otherwise this should be fine.

Good luck with your partner and your convention!

[blackshoe]

vkh, on May 5 2008, 10:02 AM, said:

I am on the East Coast of the United States. My partner thinks I'm crazy and will not accept this line of play and refuses to alert but I am rather agressive. My partner will also pass me out putting me at risk if she doesn't have the points to respond. Knowing she won't alert is it legal to pre-alert?

An alert has nothing to do with her opinion of your bidding, it's a warning to opponents that something strange is going on, and she is required to make it.

You describe your method as "rather aggressive". I agree. It would rate a pre-alert, IMO, regardless of what your partner will do. The fact you pre-alert it does not relieve her, btw, of the requirement to alert when it comes up.

As the General Convention chart defines as natural overcalls in a suit with at least four cards, your overcall on 3 cards is conventional. As it is not explicitly allowed, it is disallowed. In fact, it looks to me like it's not allowed at any level.

Bottom line: if you do it once in a while, it's a psych. If you do it regularly (and it seems you do) it is not a psych. If it is not a pscyh, it's an illegal convention. If your partner {b]knows[b] you do it (and she does) it is not a psych. Again, an illegal convention - you have an implicit agreement, even if she doesn't like it.

My recommendation: don't make this bid. Partnership harmony is important.

If you made this bid, your partner did not alert, and I were called as the TD, I would rule violations of one or more of Laws 40D (Regulation of Conventions), 72B2 (Intentional Infraction of Law), 72B4 (Concealing an Infraction) through the failure to alert, 73E (Deception), 75A (Special Partnership Agreements), 75B (Violations of Partnership Agreements), and 75D (Correcting Errors in Explanation). The end result would probably be an adjusted score and a significant procedural penalty.

[rbforster]

blackshoe, on May 5 2008, 10:39 AM, said:

If you made this bid, your partner did not alert, and I were called as the TD, I would rule violations of one or more of Laws 40D (Regulation of Conventions), 72B2 (Intentional Infraction of Law), 72B4 (Concealing an Infraction) through the failure to alert, 73E (Deception), 75A (Special Partnership Agreements), 75B (Violations of Partnership Agreements), and 75D (Correcting Errors in Explanation). The end result would probably be an adjusted score and a significant procedural penalty.

You saw this right?

vkh, on May 5 2008, 08:30 AM, said:

We are both relatively new duplicate players.  I didn't know that it was unusual that a 1 diamond overcall only promised 3 diamonds. 

He's a new player trying to learn the rules - cut him some slack! It's not like the convention chart is perfectly clear on the distinction that 3 card minor openings or responses are fine but 3 card minor overcalls aren't. Heck, if the opponents can bid (1♠)-P-(2♣) on a 3 card suit, I don't know why I shouldn't be able to overcall (1♠)-2♣ on a 3 card suit if I really wanted to (not that I think this is likely to work out well mind you). But no one said the rules had to make sense, and this goes at least double for anything written by the ACBL.

[babalu1997]

vkh, on May 5 2008, 08:30 AM, said:

Regardless I do want to let opps know that I have the tendancy to make the short diamond overcalls at the one level and know that my partner will not alert when I overcall 1 diamond because my partner refuses to believe that anyone would really do that!! Knowing that it will not be alerted is it appropriate to annouce this oddity before the play and will that keep it legal?

I know very little about the law, but i think that spirit of the laws of bridge is such that the opposition is entitled to all the information your partner has.

She knows that you do not have a 5 card mjors, she knows this suit can be short, she has to alert.

Whatever partner motives to refuse to alert and your motives to then claim a psych seems unethical to me.

I remember a seqeunce online, where bids are self-alerted, and it went 1S-3d

I asked for the alert of the 3 diamonds, and the players said-- bergen, but i don't know if partner plays it. anyway the thing ended in 5 diamonds, when in reality they had 6 spades. the player then saod that her bid was bergen but since sh did not know the partner played bergenm and she had diamonds as well, the bid could not hurt.

so I asked--

Do you play different conventions from your partner? Sometimes, was the answer. LOL

[jtfanclub]

mikeh, on May 5 2008, 10:21 AM, said:

With all respect, and knowing that you are fairly new to duplicate, this is 'crazy', and your partner is correct. There are a number of reasons why this approach is 'crazy', even tho I am sure that it generates good boards on occasion....

Suppose you're playing with a client, and you're discussing your defense against Precision 1 club opening. The client suggests a structure that includes...

1♦ = 12-15 with tolerence for both majors, or diamonds.

Would you call it crazy and refuse to play it? I think it's more his explanation that makes it sound crazy.

Unfortunately (as others have mentioned), it isn't legal against a 'natural' 1♣ opening. It is legal against short club, Polish club, Precision club, etc.

If you hate 1♦ overcalls and want to bid 2♦ with hands with diamond length, you might want to consider having 1♦ show 5-4 in the majors or longer and 10+ (or 12+) HCP. That's about the only useful thing you can do with 1♦ over a natural 1♣ opening besides showing diamonds.

[blackshoe]

Rob F, on May 5 2008, 11:19 AM, said:

You saw this right?

I suppose I must have seen it, but I did not take it into consideration. Since you bring it up, okay, I would "cut him some slack" - I would make the PP a warning, but I would be clear that what he's doing is not legal, and as I said upthread, I would recommend he stop doing it.

[ASkolnick]

Um, isn't he playing fishbein (cheaper minor for takeout)? Although not illegal, it is now considered an unusual method so it needs to be alerted.

[jtfanclub]

ASkolnick, on May 6 2008, 11:54 AM, said:

Um, isn't he playing fishbein (cheaper minor for takeout)?  Although not illegal, it is now considered an unusual method so it needs to be alerted.

It's a good try, but Fishbein fits under overcalls part 7c. "DEFENSE TO... opening bids of 2♣ or higher".

Can't use Fishbein over a 1 bid.

http://www.acbl.org/...vChart12_03.pdf