[han]

I don't think that there was any need for 4NT on this particular hand. North should just double and see if there is something sensible that can be done.

[xcurt]

655321, on Jun 25 2008, 11:55 PM, said:

I don't mind double (takeout) followed by 5♥ if it doesn't go all pass.  Even a jump to 6♥ seems OK to me.

Just jumping to 6♥ is reasonable. It was the other call I considered.

Seriously isn't there a huge risk partner is passing a takeout double. Partner is most likely looking at a three-suiter short in spades and he knows that three suiters with duplicated shortness don't play well. He will pass with all sorts of marginal hands and whenever those marginal hands have 4 hearts in them we probably want to be in slam (x, xxxx, xxxx, Kxxx needs the CA onside and 2-1 hearts to make 6♥). Since there's downside risk and not much upside (since partner won't really know what cards are good after, say, 4S-x-P-4N; P-5H-P-? why not pick a level. At least we won't wind up in a silly strain.

[655321]

xcurt, on Jun 26 2008, 08:09 PM, said:

655321, on Jun 25 2008, 11:55 PM, said:

I don't mind double (takeout) followed by 5♥ if it doesn't go all pass.  Even a jump to 6♥ seems OK to me.

Just jumping to 6♥ is reasonable. It was the other call I considered.

Seriously isn't there a huge risk partner is passing a takeout double. Partner is most likely looking at a three-suiter short in spades and he knows that three suiters with duplicated shortness don't play well. He will pass with all sorts of marginal hands and whenever those marginal hands have 4 hearts in them we probably want to be in slam (x, xxxx, xxxx, Kxxx needs the CA onside and 2-1 hearts to make 6♥). Since there's downside risk and not much upside (since partner won't really know what cards are good after, say, 4S-x-P-4N; P-5H-P-? why not pick a level. At least we won't wind up in a silly strain.

Yep, fair enough. Although I don't share this concern (partner will often have a suit to bid, or if he passes 4♠X may well be our best spot) I agree you can make a reasonable case against doubling.

My original comment was in response to your worry that partner would be passing the double when 4♠X is cold. I just felt that this was so unlikely as not to be a factor in deciding what to bid over 4♠.

[gnasher]

han, on Jun 26 2008, 10:03 PM, said:

I don't think that there was any need for 4NT on this particular hand. North should just double and see if there is something sensible that can be done.

So what about Justin's argument that 4NT increases the chances that you'll be able to show your hand on the next round, because
  4♠ 4NT pass 5♣
  5♥
is a slam try, but
  4♠ dbl pass 5♣
  5♥
is not?

[sathyab]

gnasher, on Jun 27 2008, 02:43 AM, said:

han, on Jun 26 2008, 10:03 PM, said:

I don't think that there was any need for 4NT on this particular hand. North should just double and see if there is something sensible that can be done.

So what about Justin's argument that 4NT increases the chances that you'll be able to show your hand on the next round, because
  4♠ 4NT pass 5♣
  5♥
is a slam try, but
  4♠ dbl pass 5♣
  5♥
is not?

It's almost as if you're treating the 4nt and X over 4s as a relay to 5c ! What if he bids 5d instead, because 4nt appeared as a take-out in the minors ? What would 5h mean then ?

[gnasher]

sathyab, on Jun 27 2008, 09:36 AM, said:

It's almost as if you're treating the 4nt and X over 4s as a relay to 5c ! What if he bids 5d instead, because 4nt appeared as a take-out in the minors ? What would 5h mean then ?

I'm treating 4NT as a two-suited takeout (any two suits, not just the minors), and I'm expecting advancer to respond in the same way as everyone else does. Similarly, I'm treating double as a takeout double, and I'm expecting advancer to respond in the same way as everyone else responds to a takeout double.

  4♠ 4NT pass 5♦
  pass 5♥
is to play, suggesting hearts and clubs (but also, occasionally, a 1-suited slam try in hearts).

  4♠ 4NT pass 5♣
  pass 5♥
can't show hearts and diamonds, because with that hand you would bid 5♦. Therefore 5♥ shows a slam try with just hearts.

Justin's argues, and I agree, that
  4♠ dbl pass 5♦
  pass 5♥
is to play, suggesting 6-4 in hearts and clubs, and
  4♠ dbl pass 5♣
  pass 5♥
is to play, suggesting 6-4 in hearts and diamonds

In that case, the only sequence where you can show a slam try after starting with double is
  4♠ dbl pass 4NT
  pass 5♥

With 2-0 in the minors, I think you have a greater chance of showing a slam try by starting with 4NT than by starting with double. Nether action guarantees being able to show a slam try.

[nige1]

ArtK78, on Jun 26 2008, 02:59 PM, said:

A 7NT bid on the South hand over 7♥ is the kind of bid that results in 7NTx down 8 or more tricks.  North has a singleton or void in spades along with 10 solid hearts.
Really, the only excuse for bidding 7NT on the South cards is that he sees North's hand.

IMO, a majestic leap to 7♥ implies first round ♠ control. It seems unlikely that your partner has a ♠ void rather than ♠A because ...

• You, yourself, have a ♠ void.
  
• Opponents with 13 ♠ are remarkably quiet.

[ArtK78]

nige1, on Jun 27 2008, 06:57 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Jun 26 2008, 02:59 PM, said:

A 7NT bid on the South hand over 7♥ is the kind of bid that results in 7NTx down 8 or more tricks.  North has a singleton or void in spades along with 10 solid hearts.
Really, the only excuse for bidding 7NT on the South cards is that he sees North's hand.

IMO, a majestic leap to 7♥ implies first round ♠ control. It seems unlikely that your partner has a ♠ void rather than ♠A because ...

• You, yourself, have a ♠ void.
  
  
• Opponents with 13 ♠ are remarkably quiet.

I will have to remember that all I need to make a grand in NT is first round control in the opponents suit.

Admittedly, the opponents are very quiet if they have a 13 card fit. But it is not entirely out of the question. After all, Justin said that it turned out that spades were 9-0. If the spades were 9-4, the player with 4 might not have taken any precipitous action.

Every few years a hand is reported, usually at an NABC, where the opponents have a 13 card fit. One of the players cue bids the opponents' suit and his partner assumes that he is cue bidding the Ace, since he is void. And they wind up in 7NTx down 8 tricks. This action is repeated several times and everyone has a good laugh at the expense of the pairs who were cold for a grand slam but went down 2300 in 7NTx.

I am certainly not saying that this is the case on this hand. It is certainly extremely unlikely. But it is possible.

[benlessard]

If 5H over 5m show the hands too strong for a 5H overcall then 6H over 5S show the same hand right ?