[helene_t]

Simple question: at what EBU levels can I play polish club?

I know some of the conventions popular in Poland are not allowed in most tourneys but that's not a problem. We could switch to natural weak twos etc. But what about a 1♣ opening showing either 12-14 bal or 15+ clubs or 18+ any?

I would like to play Polish club with my new p in the district league. Not sure what EBU level applies there but that I could find out.

Thanks.

[FrancesHinden]

You can play the 1C part of Polish club at level 4. I don't know if that's allowed in your district league or not - I'd say it was 50/50 whether they are going to be L3 or L4.

[TylerE]

It's funny that

1♣ = 12-14 bal or 15+ clubs or 18+ any is restricted but
1♣ = 12-14 bal or 17(+)-(20-) bal or 12-22 3+ ♣ is totally unrestricted...

[NickRW]

TylerE, on Sep 19 2008, 03:13 PM, said:

It's funny that

1♣ = 12-14 bal or 15+ clubs or 18+ any is restricted but
1♣ = 12-14 bal or 17(+)-(20-) bal or 12-22 3+ ♣ is totally unrestricted...

Yeah - it is weird to the point of indefensibility.

Unfortunately if there were to be change, (I imagine) there would be those that, instead of allowing a "two way" club at level 3, would argue for tightening up levels 2 and 3.

Weak only multi 2♦ is (per WJ05) not playable at level 3 either - but the other 2 level pre-empts are - and it would be simple enough to move a reasonably common strong option out of 1♣ to make a UK level 3 legal version of the multi.

Nick

[glen]

Arrrrg! Pirate Club has been made to walk the plank too (search with google pirate search). Pirate club:

- stolen bids
- ♦s means ♠, with or without ♥s too
- ♠ use shows ♦
- preemptive and surprise grog-based bidding
- 3NT is always a port

[roghog]

Hmmm, quite a sore point for me, this one.

Last year, I played in a little one-day Swiss Pairs with a young Polish person who had just moved to England. We agreed to play a very simple Polish Club (no funny Two Bids).

On the penultimate round, we had to play a prominent member of the EBU's Laws and Ethics Committee - they make the rules - who looked at our CC and said. "Polish Club, I see. Afraid this is a level 3 Event. We can't allow anything that might be too much for the normal EBU member." (Well, we'd played the whole event without a hint of a problem!) I explained that my inexperienced partner didn't know any other system, but it was to no avail. Imagine my surprise when Mr EBU and his partner had a seres of complex auctions, with most bids alerted, several with multiple meanings! Fortunately we didn't have any bidding to do and he couldn't ban our defence, so we won 19-1 VPs.

And we moved to Table 1 for the last round, where we sat down against Paul Hackett. I explained the problem, and Paul's response was "Hey, don't worry, play whatever you like!"

[mycroft]

Well, the difference really is two clubs.

Which is, in fact, quite a difference.

Yes, it only happens 5% of the time, but my "Precision 2D" 2H opener happens less often, but that doesn't mean that's legal where I play either.

While I have said in a recent thread that the defence to a "could be short" 1C, while not optimal, is certainly adequate for a club game over a Polish 1C - and I still believe that - if you really can tell me that 1C on T84 QT84 AKT6 KJ5 usually, but sometimes on AKQT8 AKQT8 Q75 -- is not a different animal from Precision (always strong) or "natural" (not 5x unless clubs or clubs longer, not 4441), then I think you're fooling yourself.

But ruling bodies are a world unto themselves, and will not make anybody happy. Unlike other places, however, they do take petitions from the players, and frequently change the levels based on those petitions. In other words, if you have a problem with where Polish Club is, ask the EBU to revisit it, and give your arguments there.

[NickRW]

roghog, on Sep 19 2008, 07:23 PM, said:

On the penultimate round, we had to play a prominent member of the EBU's Laws and Ethics Committee - they make the rules - who looked at our CC and said. "Polish Club, I see. Afraid this is a level 3 Event. We can't allow anything that might be too much for the normal EBU member." (Well, we'd played the whole event without a hint of a problem!) I explained that my inexperienced partner didn't know any other system, but it was to no avail. Imagine my surprise when Mr EBU and his partner had a seres of complex auctions, with most bids alerted, several with multiple meanings! Fortunately we didn't have any bidding to do and he couldn't ban our defence, so we won 19-1 VPs.

Excellent

Quote

And we moved to Table 1 for the last round, where we sat down against Paul Hackett. I explained the problem, and Paul's response was "Hey, don't worry, play whatever you like!"

Hmm. So this was an event for "normal EBU members", none of whom complained about Polish Club other than a law maker and which was attended by "normal EBU members" such as EBU law givers and at least one of the Hacketts.

Somewhere someone lost touch with reality methinks!

Nick

[NickRW]

mycroft, on Sep 19 2008, 09:25 PM, said:

Yes, it only happens 5% of the time, but my "Precision 2D" 2H opener happens less often, but that doesn't mean that's legal where I play either.

Is that entirely true? From something I remember reading you might be on dodgy ground with a 4-3-1-5 shape specifically - but everything else includes 4 hearts - so, on that basis, a precision 2D opened 2H isn't bannable by any NBO as it is a natural bid that includes a genuine heart suit. I thought I read that the WBF will not allow any NBO to ban a natural bid.

Could be wrong - but that is what I seem to recall.

Nick

[paulg]

NickRW, on Sep 20 2008, 12:35 AM, said:

roghog, on Sep 19 2008, 07:23 PM, said:

On the penultimate round, we had to play a prominent member of the EBU's Laws and Ethics Committee - they make the rules - who looked at our CC and said. "Polish Club, I see. Afraid this is a level 3 Event. We can't allow anything that might be too much for the normal EBU member." (Well, we'd played the whole event without a hint of a problem!) I explained that my inexperienced partner didn't know any other system, but it was to no avail. Imagine my surprise when Mr EBU and his partner had a seres of complex auctions, with most bids alerted, several with multiple meanings! Fortunately we didn't have any bidding to do and he couldn't ban our defence, so we won 19-1 VPs.

Excellent

Quote

And we moved to Table 1 for the last round, where we sat down against Paul Hackett. I explained the problem, and Paul's response was "Hey, don't worry, play whatever you like!"

Hmm. So this was an event for "normal EBU members", none of whom complained about Polish Club other than a law maker and which was attended by "normal EBU members" such as EBU law givers and at least one of the Hacketts.

Somewhere someone lost touch with reality methinks!

Nick

Nick, unfortunately I think that person is you.

It is reasonable for the organisers to limit the convention bids used in a competition especially where there is a mix of competitors. 'Little 1-day swiss' implies that it is an event where they are looking to encourage club players to attend and setting it at Level 3 is a sensible option.

From my experience, the majority of players at a L3 event would not know that Polish Club is not permitted and naturally would not complain, especially when it is played by an experienced player like roghog who they'd expect to know the regulations - not that I blame roghog in any way as it's an easy mistake to make.

And it does appear that the L&EC members thoughts were about protecting the field, which seems an honourable action, rather than being disconcerted about playing against it himself.

I may be one of the those who think that Polish Club should be playable at Level 3, but currently it is not permitted.

At least not in England. You'd always be welcome to play in Scotland.

Paul

[paulg]

NickRW, on Sep 20 2008, 12:49 AM, said:

mycroft, on Sep 19 2008, 09:25 PM, said:

Yes, it only happens 5% of the time, but my "Precision 2D" 2H opener happens less often, but that doesn't mean that's legal where I play either.

Is that entirely true? From something I remember reading you might be on dodgy ground with a 4-3-1-5 shape specifically - but everything else includes 4 hearts - so, on that basis, a precision 2D opened 2H isn't bannable by any NBO as it is a natural bid that includes a genuine heart suit. I thought I read that the WBF will not allow any NBO to ban a natural bid.

Could be wrong - but that is what I seem to recall.

Nick

Wrong I'm afraid. An argument that has been made many times in these forums but just because a call shows a 4-card suit does not make it natural.

If a bid just shows the suit bid, then these is a fair chance that it is natural. Any bid that shows a three-suiter hand is conventional.

However the good news is that mycroft can play his 2♥ call at any event in England from Level 2 up (that is, any event except the 0-5 pairs equivalent).

Paul

[blackshoe]

Actually, even if the "Precision" 2 :h: opening guarantees four hearts or is otherwise considered "natural", a Regulating Authority can ban it. All they have to do is designate it a "special partnership understanding" and they can regulate it however they like.

In the ACBL, this opening is Midchart, playable in segments of at least 2 boards, which in practice means it can be played anywhere the Midchart is allowed. The problem is that while I suspect practice varies in different parts of the country, around here, and in most places as far as I've been able to discern, the Midchart is not allowed. So while there are in theory four convention charts in the ACBL (the Limited chart, the General chart, the Mid chart, and the Super chart) in practice there are only two: the Super chart, allowed in North American Championships, and the General chart for almost all other games. Personally, I think that sucks, and so do a lot of the people I've talked to about it, but the ACBL claims we're in the minority.

Clubs can of course make their own rules. Around here the rule seems to be that you can play anything you like, until somebody — anybody, for any reason, or no reason — complains. Then you will discover that you've been playing an illegal agreement all along.

[awm]

blackshoe, on Sep 20 2008, 11:36 AM, said:

The problem is that while I suspect practice varies in different parts of the country, around here, and in most places as far as I've been able to discern, the Midchart is not allowed. So while there are in theory four convention charts in the ACBL (the Limited chart, the General chart, the Mid chart, and the Super chart) in practice there are only two: the Super chart, allowed in North American Championships, and the General chart for almost all other games.

I disagree with this.

Virtually all regional events that I play in are mid-chart. A/X swiss is mid-chart. Bracket one KOs (and in larger regionals some of the other brackets as well) are mid-chart. A/X pairs are mid-chart. Also NAP A, GNT A, and GNT Open are all mid-chart (both locally and nationally).

The only regional events that are typically general chart are the open stratified pairs, the lower brackets of KOs, the "B/C/D" parts of the strati-flighted events, and the single-session side pairs (some regionals have side BAMs which are also general chart). This situation (regarding regionals) has been my experience in five different districts, so while it might be different wherever you are, I'd be surprised. My impression was that there was more or less a requirement that KOs with a sufficiently high lower masterpoint limit be mid-chart.

At sectionals things vary a bit more, but I have seen mid-chart flighted or strati-flighted events at sectional tournaments on occasion.

It is also the case that many of the national events are mid-chart, aside from the fast pairs (I think this is general chart) and the long team events (spingold/vanderbilt are super-chart).

[NickRW]

cardsharp, on Sep 20 2008, 08:05 AM, said:

Wrong I'm afraid. An argument that has been made many times in these forums but just because a call shows a 4-card suit does not make it natural.

If a bid just shows the suit bid, then these is a fair chance that it is natural. Any bid that shows a three-suiter hand is conventional.

However the good news is that mycroft can play his 2♥ call at any event in England from Level 2 up (that is, any event except the 0-5 pairs equivalent).

Paul

Well, Paul, this is not necessarily your fault of course, and my response here is not in anyway getting at you. However, arguments such as you have advanced leave me feeling decidedly sick - I mean that almost literally - I've just eaten a nice evening meal - and I want to bring it up. "Conventional" - "natural". In the other post I said someone had lost touch with reality - you didn't seem to like that. I say again - law makers have no idea what ordinary people think. Certainly don't have any idea what I think anyway.

If you'll excuse me - I need the bathroom.

Nick

[blackshoe]

awm, on Sep 20 2008, 01:10 PM, said:

Virtually all regional events that I play in are mid-chart. A/X swiss is mid-chart. Bracket one KOs (and in larger regionals some of the other brackets as well) are mid-chart. A/X pairs are mid-chart. Also NAP A, GNT A, and GNT Open are all mid-chart (both locally and nationally).

The only regional events that are typically general chart are the open stratified pairs, the lower brackets of KOs, the "B/C/D" parts of the strati-flighted events, and the single-session side pairs (some regionals have side BAMs which are also general chart). This situation (regarding regionals) has been my experience in five different districts, so while it might be different wherever you are, I'd be surprised. My impression was that there was more or less a requirement that KOs with a sufficiently high lower masterpoint limit be mid-chart.

At sectionals things vary a bit more, but I have seen mid-chart flighted or strati-flighted events at sectional tournaments on occasion.

It is also the case that many of the national events are mid-chart, aside from the fast pairs (I think this is general chart) and the long team events (spingold/vanderbilt are super-chart).

As I said, it may well vary depending on where you are. I'm in District 4, Unit 112, and I've never seen Midchart at either a sectional or a regional. I don't play in the top brackets, so that may be part of it. What district are you in?

I did say that NABC events are Superchart. I thought that inclcuded the Spingold and the Vanderbilt.

[awm]

My experiences are in District 23 (Los Angeles - my current home district), District 22 (Southern California, right next door), District 21 (Northern California, where I went to school and I still visit a few times a year), District 5 (Pittsburgh and Cleveland, where I did my postdoctoral work), and District 6 (Maryland and Virginia, where my parents live). In all cases top bracket KOs and A/X swiss teams at regionals were mid-chart. I have also played a few events in District 17 (Las Vegas, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado) and the same rules seem to apply there.

There is some lower masterpoint limit you need for mid-chart events generally -- I think the rule is something like "if there is no team with less than 2000 per player on average then the event is mid-chart" (although I could be wrong about the precise number). If there are concurrent events (like A/X and B/C/D) where the higher level event allows anyone to "play up" but the lower level event handles the under 2000 MP players specifically, then the higher level event will also be mid-chart.

As to national events, the following national events are specifically mid-chart. They are not super-chart:

Life Master Pairs (2 day, 3 day, womens). Blue Ribbon Pairs. Wernher Pairs. Silodor Pairs. Open BAM. Mixed BAM. Lehbar IMP Pairs. National Swiss teams (2 day and 3 day). North American Pairs flight A. Grand National Teams Open Flight. I think the Reisinger is also mid-chart, although I am not totally sure it isn't super-chart.

I suspect that the Senior Swiss and Senior KO may also be mid-chart (less sure about these).

Also the Mini-Spingold (1500 and 5000 Brackets) is Mid-Chart. The Grand National Teams Flight A is mid-chart.

In essence this is every nationally rated event save (open) Spingold, Vanderbilt, Wager all of which are super-chart, and the fast pairs (general chart).

My point is that at the regional and national level, the vast majority of open events are mid-chart. Obviously things are different if you are looking at lower brackets of KOs or at stratified open pairs, or any event where there are lots of people under 2000 masterpoints who aren't specifically "playing up" (i.e. they don't have an equivalent limited event just for them). On the other hand there are very few events which are super-chart. Most national events are not, and I have never seen a super-chart event in a regional tournament.

[Elianna]

blackshoe, on Sep 20 2008, 06:29 PM, said:

awm, on Sep 20 2008, 01:10 PM, said:

Virtually all regional events that I play in are mid-chart. A/X swiss is mid-chart. Bracket one KOs (and in larger regionals some of the other brackets as well) are mid-chart. A/X pairs are mid-chart. Also NAP A, GNT A, and GNT Open are all mid-chart (both locally and nationally).

The only regional events that are typically general chart are the open stratified pairs, the lower brackets of KOs, the "B/C/D" parts of the strati-flighted events, and the single-session side pairs (some regionals have side BAMs which are also general chart). This situation (regarding regionals) has been my experience in five different districts, so while it might be different wherever you are, I'd be surprised. My impression was that there was more or less a requirement that KOs with a sufficiently high lower masterpoint limit be mid-chart.

At sectionals things vary a bit more, but I have seen mid-chart flighted or strati-flighted events at sectional tournaments on occasion.

It is also the case that many of the national events are mid-chart, aside from the fast pairs (I think this is general chart) and the long team events (spingold/vanderbilt are super-chart).

As I said, it may well vary depending on where you are. I'm in District 4, Unit 112, and I've never seen Midchart at either a sectional or a regional. I don't play in the top brackets, so that may be part of it. What district are you in?

Your Lancaster, PA regional (I found the flyer off the district 4 webpage): http://web2.acbl.org.../11/0811000.pdf

It says flight A and top bracket KOs are midchart.

Some "King of Prussia" regional that already happened (found off of your unit page): http://web2.acbl.org.../06/0806060.pdf

It says flight A and top bracket KOs are midchart.

Granted, your sectionals don't have anything listed either way, but maybe that's a function of your unit. They seem to only have stratified games, and not stratiflighted games, and that may explain why they don't have midchart games.

[hrothgar]

awm, on Sep 21 2008, 10:11 AM, said:

The Grand National Teams Flight A is mid-chart.

In essence this is every nationally rated event save (open) Spingold, Vanderbilt, Wager all of which are super-chart, and the fast pairs (general chart).

Are you sure about the GNTs?

I was under the impression that the Flight A of the GNTS were GCC. (I seem to recall District 25 discussing using the MidChart for local GNT competition. We didn't because the National event used the GCC)

[TimG]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, so pardon me if this repetitive.

In the ACBL, organizers of Sectional and Regional events are pretty much on their own in deciding what convention charts to allow (or even in allowing parts of some charts). There may be some regulations regarding mid-chart or higher in limited masterpoint events. But, in general, Units and Districts (the bodies that run Sectionals and Regionals) can do what they want. Seeing a Open Swiss at a regional limited to GCC or allowing mid-chart in no way means that an Open Swiss in another regional will be run under the same convention chart. It doesn't even mean that a similar event at the same tournament will be run under the same convention chart.

This probably seems strange to people in other parts of the world who can note that a tournament is a certain type and know immediately what level conventions will be allowed.

[blackshoe]

The Midchart says

Quote

This chart applies to:
1. All NABC+ events with no upper masterpoint restrictions played at an NABC.
2. All unrestricted Flight A regionally rated events at an NABC.
3. Any bracket of a bracketed KO at an NABC which contains no team with a bracket designator (average masterpoints of the entire team) of less than 1500 points. This chart (or any part) may apply to any sectionally or regionally rated event or tournament at sponsor’s option provided that this has been included in tournament advertising. (The requirement for advertising does not extend to use in Flt. A or high brackets of KOs.)

So the fact that the Midchart applies in flight A or the top bracket of KOs at regionals (or sectionals) does not have to be advertised. That the Midchart is allowed in any other event at a regional or sectional does have to be advertised. I have to admit I don't pay much attention to advertising for events outside my area, but I'm the webmaster for our Unit website, and I generally look through the flyers for local events when I post or link them on the site. Absent the default allowances, I've never seen anything saying Midchart is allowed.

I suppose if I want to play Midchart I could limit my playing to the aforementioned few events where it's allowed, but given the cost, and the fact that I'm generally broke, that's not likely to happen.

The Superchart says

Quote

This chart applies to all NABC+ events with no upper masterpoint limit played at an NABC in which contestants play segments (no change of opponents) of 12 or more boards. This chart (or any part) may be used at a sectionally or regionally rated event or tournament at sponsor’s option in any event with 12-board or longer segments provided this has been included in tournament advertising.

Maybe I've missed it, but I've never seen advertising for any tournament which says the Superchart is allowed. BTW, what's an "NABC+" event?

On a side note, it appears that, when playing under the Superchart, one must provide a suggested defense for any convention authorized on the Midchart, including those for which the Midchart does not require it.