[JoAnneM]

I am confused. If none of your income is from W-2's are you going to get a stimulus check?

[jdonn]

Al_U_Card, on Apr 8 2009, 10:01 PM, said:

The question is not whether the situation is critical (they robbed us blind so the coffers are empty) nor how to fix the problem (may be needed but only time will tell. The issue is whether the guilty should get off scot-free.

I guess my problem is there seems to be a lot of 'guilty by association' in all this blame. If you were in any management position at any financial or auto company when this happened then by god you are largely at fault! And if you simply worked for one of those companies, too bad for you!

I honestly don't care about blame right now. If it's in the best interests of the general public then you save the companies, if it's not then you don't. That should be what the debate is about imo.

[Trinidad]

Gerben42, on Apr 8 2009, 10:49 AM, said:

And while we're at it, I still have an old ZX to trash - give me a new PC!

Are you talking about a ZX80, ZX81, a ZX Spectrum or a ZX Spectrum+ from (Sir Clive) Sinclair?

I imagine that if you would put those on e-bay, a collector would be willing to pay for something like that.

And no, I am no collector, but my first computer was a ZX Spectrum. I was about 15 then. This makes me feel like a very old geek.

Rik

[Al_U_Card]

jdonn, on Apr 9 2009, 12:34 AM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Apr 8 2009, 10:01 PM, said:

The question is not whether the situation is critical (they robbed us blind so the coffers are empty) nor how to fix the problem (may be needed but only time will tell. The issue is whether the guilty should get off scot-free.

I guess my problem is there seems to be a lot of 'guilty by association' in all this blame. If you were in any management position at any financial or auto company when this happened then by god you are largely at fault! And if you simply worked for one of those companies, too bad for you!

I honestly don't care about blame right now. If it's in the best interests of the general public then you save the companies, if it's not then you don't. That should be what the debate is about imo.

When the team performs badly, you fire the coach...

Since the companies are run by someone, that person must be held accountable as well as those who were in a position of (fiduciary?) trust that betrayed us.

The US has the highest incarceration rate of any nation. The legal system has checks and controls for all kinds of fraudulent and breach of trust situations. Just what (other than cronyism and elitism) makes the corporate bankers exempt from the law of the land? And just what makes them the only ones able to "run" the fiduciary institutions that got us into this mess in the first place?

If you had a mole in your intelligence network, would you not ferret him out?

If you had a "Typhoid Mary" in your community would you not cure them?

If you had a pedophile in your school system would you not remove them?

You cannot leave the rotten apples in the barrel and expect to keep your apples fresh.

[PassedOut]

Al_U_Card, on Apr 9 2009, 05:49 AM, said:

If you had a pedophile in your school system would you not remove them?

Actually, the financial executives who got us into this mess seem to me to have a lot in common with pedophiles:

- Find people who can't protect themselves
- Gain their trust
- Exploit them

[Gerben42]

Quote

Are you talking about a ZX80, ZX81, a ZX Spectrum or a ZX Spectrum+ from (Sir Clive) Sinclair?

I imagine that if you would put those on e-bay, a collector would be willing to pay for something like that.

And no, I am no collector, but my first computer was a ZX Spectrum. I was about 15 then. This makes me feel like a very old geek.

It's a Philips MSX 1, which btw. is still working

[y66]

Awesome. Looks like a real keyboard.

[Trinidad]

Gerben42, on Apr 9 2009, 07:38 AM, said:

Quote

Are you talking about a ZX80, ZX81, a ZX Spectrum or a ZX Spectrum+ from (Sir Clive) Sinclair?

I imagine that if you would put those on e-bay, a collector would be willing to pay for something like that.

And no, I am no collector, but my first computer was a ZX Spectrum. I was about 15 then. This makes me feel like a very old geek.

It's a Philips MSX 1, which btw. is still working

Very nice!

80 K RAM and 32 K ROM, I noticed. My ZX Spectrum had 16 K ROM and 16 K RAM, but I was in love with it. I will never forget the sound of saving or loading your programs to cassette tape. It was somewhat like a phone line modem, but with the added sound of the wheels of the cassette player moving.

If my kids would see one, they would probably not recognize it as a computer. No mouse, no DVD drive, no speakers, no flat screen monitor.
- "How do you get on the internet with it?"



Rik

[Aberlour10]

/off-topic/I remember, my first machine had a 20MB hard disk, enormous piece of space, I did not use a half of it!

[jdonn]

Al_U_Card, on Apr 9 2009, 05:49 AM, said:

When the team performs badly, you fire the coach...

When the league performs badly, I don't fire every coach.

Quote

If you had a mole in your intelligence network, would you not ferret him out?

I wouldn't assume everyone in my network was a mole.

Quote

If you had a pedophile in your school system would you not remove them?

Yes but not everyone else.

Quote

You cannot leave the rotten apples in the barrel and expect to keep your apples fresh.

Your solution seems to be assume every apple is going to rot the rest of them.

You show that you are missing the point. Over, and over, and over, and over....

[Al_U_Card]

jdonn, on Apr 9 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Apr 9 2009, 05:49 AM, said:

When the team performs badly, you fire the coach...

When the league performs badly, I don't fire every coach.

Quote

If you had a mole in your intelligence network, would you not ferret him out?

I wouldn't assume everyone in my network was a mole.

Quote

If you had a pedophile in your school system would you not remove them?

Yes but not everyone else.

Quote

You cannot leave the rotten apples in the barrel and expect to keep your apples fresh.

Your solution seems to be assume every apple is going to rot the rest of them.

You show that you are missing the point. Over, and over, and over, and over....

1 Just the ones that were stealing from the fans.

2 But you would still look for and take care of the real one(s).

3 Hunh? All of them because any that are left will continue to offend.

4 Just the rotten apples cause the problem for the rest. Remove them and the good apples remain okay.

The point is that certain individuals colluded and connived to empty our pockets. They must be found and stopped or they will continue to do so. THAT is the only point of merit.

[jdonn]

Al_U_Card, on Apr 9 2009, 11:10 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 9 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Apr 9 2009, 05:49 AM, said:

When the team performs badly, you fire the coach...

When the league performs badly, I don't fire every coach.

Quote

If you had a mole in your intelligence network, would you not ferret him out?

I wouldn't assume everyone in my network was a mole.

Quote

If you had a pedophile in your school system would you not remove them?

Yes but not everyone else.

Quote

You cannot leave the rotten apples in the barrel and expect to keep your apples fresh.

Your solution seems to be assume every apple is going to rot the rest of them.

You show that you are missing the point. Over, and over, and over, and over....

1 Just the ones that were stealing from the fans.

2 But you would still look for and take care of the real one(s).

3 Hunh? All of them because any that are left will continue to offend.

4 Just the rotten apples cause the problem for the rest. Remove them and the good apples remain okay.

The point is that certain individuals colluded and connived to empty our pockets. They must be found and stopped or they will continue to do so. THAT is the only point of merit.

I don't know if we are going in circles or not but that leads to my two points. The firs is agreeing with you that the guilty parties can be found, whereas it seems like many people just assume everyone who was involved in the system at all must be guilty (at least agreeing with your last post, which I think doesn't agree with your prior post?) The second is to say you punish and/or replace them if it's in your best interests to do so, but not as a punitive or vindictive measure. If you say they stole from us and thus they must pay, that's when you are missing the point.

[Al_U_Card]

Only punish the guilty.

The CEO's that let it happen on their watch must resign.

The CFO's and other fiduciary officers that orchestrated the frauds must be prosecuted.

If we can spend billions on following "terrorists" around and incarcerating them, why not be able to make an effort to determine the "cause" for the economic terror that has been leveled against us?

Only do what is fair and according to the law.

What must be avoided is to turn a blind eye out of fear based on what the guilty are telling us. We must not be so naive nor so gullible.

[onoway]

ah but terrorists are obviously 'different". Most of these guys are just being blamed for what many people would themselves do if they 1) were in a position to do so 2) were smart enough to figure out how and 3) figured they could get away with it. I suspect for many people there is mixed in with the anger and dismay a kernel of admiration and perhaps respect for the degree of success these guys have had on a personal level. Sorta like the phenomenon of kidnap victims getting attached to their kidnappers...remember Patty Hearst?
It isn't the same as blowing yourself up..hard for most people to relate to that. Or am I just cynical?

[Al_U_Card]

Sadly, I suppose it is possible and it would be an indication of the degree of indoctrination and trepidation that those people would exhibit.

Either way, some 3,000 people losts their lives in 9-11. A tragedy and a crime. (btw, Where in the world is Osama bin Laden?)

If stealing your life savings and then insisting that you repay the bank that "lost" your money isn't criminal then it too is certainly a tragedy as far as the number of lost livelihoods goes. On a par with 9-11? Not even close. Worthy of consideration and action? Hopefully more effective than the war on terror....but somehow I doubt it will even be that good.

[Al_U_Card]

Wells-Fargo posts record profit? Doh!

http://cxa.marketwatch.com/TSX/en/Market/a...DB1BD16B20A9%7d

[JoAnneM]

A nice sub-thread going. Our first home computer was purchased in 1978. An 8K Commodore Pet. Very exciting. I found the pamphlet that came with it just the other day - very small. For the several months we had to either buy programs directly from the programmers or type them in ourselves from books. Then software stores started appearing.

My husband was stationed at NSA at the time and shortly after we got it we had a promotion party at our house and most of those computer guys spent the evening playing with our Commodore Pet!

[Lobowolf]

lol I had the TRS-80 from Radio Shack, complete with cassette memory and an artificial intelligence program (Eliza, anyone?) that knew about 6 sentence constructions.

[fred]

JoAnneM, on Apr 9 2009, 10:35 PM, said:

Our first home computer was purchased in 1978.  An 8K Commodore Pet.

Me too - I was 13 at the time and, as far as I could tell, I was the first kid on my block to own a computer

I taught myself (Microsoft) BASIC on my PET and spent most of my non-school waking hours programming (mostly primitive video games) until I got involved in bridge a few years later.

I could never stand the thought of throwing that computer in the garbage so I still have it. Maybe it will have some antique value one day...

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[barmar]

Al_U_Card, on Apr 9 2009, 05:49 AM, said:

When the team performs badly, you fire the coach...

Only if you can replace him with someone better.

This was not a competition, where some companies won and others lost, so we should fire the CEOs of the losers. They practically ALL lost. If you fire them all, who is left to fix things?