[mich-b]

I would like to ask how everybody plays this :

1♥ - 2NT (minors) - 3♦
(3♦ is agreed to be showing a good hand with ♠, 3♠ would be non-forcing).

So do you play 3♦ as GF , and 3♠ as about 9-11?
Or 3♦ is 9+ , and 3♠ about 6-8?

Also ,does it change if we have the minors , and they the majors
1♣ - 2♦ (majors) - 2♠ (♦ good hand)
do you play this 2♠ as GF , or limit+ ?

(Please , dont get into the debate about which of 3♦ or 3♣ should be showing ♠s - this doesnt matter for the purpose of this question)

[Phil]

No, 3♠ is just competitive. I would make the call with a 6 count if I had four trump.

3♦ is at least an invitation and sets up a forcing pass at the 3 level.

[ArtK78]

Over 1♥ - (2NT) you should reverse the meanings of 3♦ and 3♠.

3♦ shows spades and no more than invitational strength.

3♠ is natural and forcing.

This allows you to get out in 3♥ if opener has no spade fit and a minimum.

[peachy]

In the lower-for-lower defense, I play 3C is "limit or better heart raise" and 3D is "limit or better with 5+ spades" while 3H and 3S are "non-invitational noise". The gameforcing hands are included in the 3C and 3D bids, if we have support or if we have spades. Other types of gameforcing hands will Dbl first, seeking mainly to penalize them since there is likely no fit for us.

[Phil]

ArtK78, on May 11 2009, 09:28 AM, said:

Over 1♥ - (2NT) you should reverse the meanings of 3♦ and 3♠.

3♦ shows spades and no more than invitational strength.

3♠ is natural and forcing.

This allows you to get out in 3♥ if opener has no spade fit and a minimum.

Surely you mean we can get out in 3♠, not 3♥. You have a typo somewhere Art.

I've heard of this method and I don't like it. If my LHO bids 4♣ over 3♦, how can partner ever know to make the right decision when my 3♦ can be either:

Qxxx, Axxx, xx, xxx

or

Kxx, AJxx, xx, Kxxx?

[mikeh]

Phil, on May 11 2009, 10:41 AM, said:

ArtK78, on May 11 2009, 09:28 AM, said:

Over 1♥ - (2NT) you should reverse the meanings of 3♦ and 3♠.

3♦ shows spades and no more than invitational strength.

3♠ is natural and forcing.

This allows you to get out in 3♥ if opener has no spade fit and a minimum.

Surely you mean we can get out in 3♠, not 3♥. You have a typo somewhere Art.

I've heard of this method and I don't like it. If my LHO bids 4♣ over 3♦, how can partner ever know to make the right decision when my 3♦ can be either:

Qxxx, Axxx, xx, xxx

or

Kxx, AJxx, xx, Kxxx?

Phil, in both of your posts on this thread, it looks as if you are discussing a 1♠ opening, while the posts to which you respond deal with a 1♥ opening

As for my preference, I like 3♣/3♦ to be invitational or better, in hearts/spades, with 3 other major as competitive.. 1♥ (2N) 3♠ would show, for me, the equivalent of a good-suit weak two bid, non maximum high card: KQ10xxx would be a prototypical holding, with at most a side K.

As for the OP question, I don't define these calls in terms of high card strength: so much depends on WHERE the high cards are, on the degree of secondary fit, the shape and so on.

[kenrexford]

I also reverse the meanings of 3♠ and 3♦ for the same reason suggested by Art -- to get out in 3♥ if that makes sense. That's how I learned it.

However, I don't think that this approach as stated is precisely best. IMO, the concern is often to not bypass 3♥, even with some GF hands.

So, IMO, 3♠ should be GF with no interest in hearing hearts rebid. 3♦ should be invitational or better. If Opener rebids 3♥ and Responder passes, great. If Responder rebids 3♠ to play, great.

But, if Responder has a hand with spades but heart tolerance, I think he does best bidding 3♦ even if GF and then just bidding past 3♠ himself, as appropriate.

[jdonn]

I learned long ago to reverse 3♦ and 3♠ for that same reason but I'm not convinced. Allowing partner to rebid hearts or show/deny spade support is very useful if we have the stronger hand too. But it's never come up for me anyway.

[FrancesHinden]

I had never discussed this with my partner other than that 3S was "non-forcing". It came up the other day, I bid 3S on

AJ109xx
xx
Axxx
x

after 1C (2NT)

This was agreed afterwards to be pretty maximum but clearly in range. It has to show a reasonably good hand as you are jumping into a misfit auction at the 3-level.

In a viciously pre-emptive auction his rebid was at the 6-level needing me to have two aces, so clearly didn't think this was too strong (he had KQ of spades so knew my spade suit wasn't very robust)

The hand above I would drive game on if necessary (e.g. 1C (3H)) but when not necessary it felt right to show it as an invite.

[hanp]

I would be uncomfortable with that hand Frances, but with the short club I think it is right. Definitely a maximum though. Give me a singleton heart and two clubs and I would bid 3D.