[MarkDean]

Scoring: IMP

---

Opponents silent, partner opens:
1♥ - 2♦
2NT - 3♦
3NT - ?

[Phil]

Would have preferred the 3♠...4♦ route.

[rogerclee]

3♦!?

[MarkDean]

rogerclee, on May 23 2009, 11:15 AM, said:

3♦!?

Is !? like in chess notation?

[the hog]

What he means is that 3D is not a good bid? What happened to 3S over 2NT and then 4D over 3NT?

The question you posed is hard to answer. What does 2NT mean in your system? Technically the way many people play, opener could even have a 4 card S suit.
eg
Axxx KQxxx x QJx - how else is opener supposed to bid this hand, unless you play an all purpose min showing 2H rebid? Really we don't have enough information to comment.

Anyway I would definitely have bid the way Phil suggested.

[jdonn]

I think 2♦ then 3♠ then 4♦ is a mistake because of the club holding. Partner, having bid notrump twice already off the AK, is going to be very worried about clubs. You are misdescribing the nature of your values and will play in a suit too often when you belong in notrump. Now it's close but I will pass, almost being worth 4NT. Partner's diamond fit must be lousy or he wouldn't have bid 3NT, and I have no help at all in hearts, so I see no reason to be optimistic.

[benlessard]

I can live with passing 3Nt but if i bid it will be ,2D followed by 3S and 4C.

[kenrexford]

There is something to be said for 2♦...3♣, actually. Lots of ways that works out, and you can just about field any radical and unexpected club leaps.

[aguahombre]

The_Hog, on May 23 2009, 08:27 PM, said:

What he means is that 3D is not a good bid? What happened to 3S over 2NT and then 4D over 3NT?

The question you posed is hard to answer. What does 2NT mean in your system? Technically the way many people play, opener could even have a 4 card S suit.
eg
Axxx KQxxx x QJx  - how else is opener supposed to bid this hand, unless you play an all purpose min showing 2H rebid? Really we don't have enough information to comment.

Anyway I would definitely have bid the way Phil suggested.

In the Hardy style of 2/1, The Hog's example hand would have rebid 2S at 2nd turn. Responding hand would have no expectation of a spade fit after the 2NT rebid, and 3D would be reasonable as showing his length and interest in slam at the same time. If that is the style, then a pass of 3NT becomes easy.

[MarkDean]

The_Hog, on May 23 2009, 05:27 PM, said:

What he means is that 3D is not a good bid? What happened to 3S over 2NT and then 4D over 3NT?

The question you posed is hard to answer. What does 2NT mean in your system? Technically the way many people play, opener could even have a 4 card S suit.
eg
Axxx KQxxx x QJx - how else is opener supposed to bid this hand, unless you play an all purpose min showing 2H rebid? Really we don't have enough information to comment.

Anyway I would definitely have bid the way Phil suggested.

In our system, 2♥ is the catchall, so 2NT is descriptive. I would expect some 5332 shape, likely 3523, and either 12-14 or 18+ HCP. I would not expect partner to have 4 spades, nor a singleton diamond.

[gnasher]

aguahombre, on May 24 2009, 04:09 PM, said:

In the Hardy style of 2/1, The Hog's example hand would have rebid 2S at 2nd turn. Responding hand would have no expectation of a spade fit after the 2NT rebid, and 3D would be reasonable as showing his length and interest in slam at the same time. If that is the style, then a pass of 3NT becomes easy.

Are you saying that 1♥-2♦;2NT-3♦ is a slam try in Hardy's style? If so, what would he do with x Kx AQJxxxx Qxx?

[aguahombre]

gnasher, on May 24 2009, 11:35 AM, said:

aguahombre, on May 24 2009, 04:09 PM, said:

In the Hardy style of 2/1, The Hog's example hand would have rebid 2S at 2nd turn. Responding hand would have no expectation of a spade fit after the 2NT rebid, and 3D would be reasonable as showing his length and interest in slam at the same time.  If that is the style, then a pass of 3NT becomes easy.

Are you saying that 1♥-2♦;2NT-3♦ is a slam try in Hardy's style? If so, what would he do with x Kx AQJxxxx Qxx?

Good question. In one, not as popular, version 2/1 is always gf. In another, it is not. I happen to play the version where 2/1 is always game force and would start with 1NT and jump to 3D with that hand. I repeat, it is not popular, but it does clear up things when we want to try for slam.

With all the styles in which 2/1 in a minor doesnt even have to be a suit, this would not be workable.

[gnasher]

aguahombre, on May 24 2009, 05:44 PM, said:

gnasher, on May 24 2009, 11:35 AM, said:

aguahombre, on May 24 2009, 04:09 PM, said:

In the Hardy style of 2/1, The Hog's example hand would have rebid 2S at 2nd turn. Responding hand would have no expectation of a spade fit after the 2NT rebid, and 3D would be reasonable as showing his length and interest in slam at the same time.  If that is the style, then a pass of 3NT becomes easy.

Are you saying that 1♥-2♦;2NT-3♦ is a slam try in Hardy's style? If so, what would he do with x Kx AQJxxxx Qxx?

Good question. In one, not as popular, version 2/1 is always gf. In another, it is not. I happen to play the version where 2/1 is always game force and would start with 1NT and jump to 3D with that hand. I repeat, it is not popular, but it does clear up things when we want to try for slam.

With all the styles in which 2/1 in a minor doesnt even have to be a suit, this would not be workable.

Picture a 1=2=7=3 shape which is, in your opinion, just good enough to game-force, and therefore less than a slam try. In Hardy-style two-over-one, what would that hand do after 1♥-2♦;2NT ?

[aguahombre]

maybe i misstated....that hand would also rebid 3d, but in the sequence given, opener's 3nt bid would have been a turn-off of slam aspirations, anyway. so responder can just select game.

[Winstonm]

There is really no way to answer this question without knowing the parameters of the 2N bid. It appears from the bidding that opener cannot be: 4522 for 2N, but could he hold a singleton diamond?

Edit: Btw, I don't mind the 3D bid at all. The way I use this sequence 3D would be a slam try so the 3N bid would be a rejection.

[whereagles]

I'll try 4NT if that's quantitative. If there could be a mix-up.. pass.

[Winstonm]

gnasher, on May 24 2009, 11:35 AM, said:

aguahombre, on May 24 2009, 04:09 PM, said:

In the Hardy style of 2/1, The Hog's example hand would have rebid 2S at 2nd turn. Responding hand would have no expectation of a spade fit after the 2NT rebid, and 3D would be reasonable as showing his length and interest in slam at the same time.  If that is the style, then a pass of 3NT becomes easy.

Are you saying that 1♥-2♦;2NT-3♦ is a slam try in Hardy's style? If so, what would he do with x Kx AQJxxxx Qxx?

The term "slam try" is too strong IMO - it should be more like suit-oriented hand and mild slam try.

[P_Marlowe]

I think the bidding is fine, partner dooes not have a
4 card spade suit, and we dont have a spade cue,
i.e. a 3S bid is a misdiscription.

Pass is most likely ok, as long as 2NT is 12-14, if it
could be stronger, I would make another move toward
slam with 4D, partner will have 2 diamonds, and should
also have a top spade honor, so we should be able to
make 5D.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jmcw]

3♦ most certainly denies 4♠ and 2NT can be rebid when holding 4♠.
So the possible 4/4 ♠ fit has been lost

[Apollo81]

rogerclee, on May 23 2009, 03:15 PM, said:

3♦!?

Agree with 3♦, and also with pretty much everything Josh said. I'll pass now.