[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Jul 9 2009, 12:55 AM, said:

how do you feel about mandatory insurance?

Fine with it...

I was never fond of Obama's health care position. I agree with Clinton that mandatory insurance is necessary.

Prefer single payer

[Winstonm]

The question about mandatory insurance leads me to my pet rant. It is neither the liberal nor the conservative that so disgusts me but it is the 100%ers, those who in Rush Limbaughdian fashion blindly argue their ideology mindless of any other factor.

But the plain facts are that government does a better job than private enterprise in some endeavors while private enterprise surpasses government in many others. To turn a blind eye and simply say all big government is wrong is simply to adopt ignorance as ideology, just as it is equally stupid to claim big government is the best solution to all problems.

Mandatory insurance is a case where government works better than private enterprise.

[mike777]

Interesting posts, ty.

The more I read on this subject it seems the main issue is should the rationing decision be based on the government or the pricing mechanism. Will the government inhibit innovation?


Winston summed it up well if the government does this better than free capital markets, we will all be very happy.

[jdonn]

Winstonm, on Jul 8 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

But the plain facts are that government does a better job than private enterprise in some endeavors while private enterprise surpasses government in many others. To turn a blind eye and simply say all big government is wrong is simply to adopt ignorance as ideology, just as it is equally stupid to claim big government is the best solution to all problems.

While I agree, I have never heard anyone (even allowing for your exageration/hyperbole) claim anything like big government is the best solution to all problems. At least I have never heard that in America.

[luke warm]

jdonn, on Jul 8 2009, 08:05 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Jul 8 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

But the plain facts are that government does a better job than private enterprise in some endeavors while private enterprise surpasses government in many others.  To turn a blind eye and simply say all big government is wrong is simply to adopt ignorance as ideology, just as it is equally stupid to claim big government is the best solution to all problems.

While I agree, I have never heard anyone (even allowing for your exageration/hyperbole) claim anything like big government is the best solution to all problems. At least I have never heard that in America.

well the gov't runs the va hospitals, but i don't know if a look at them is a look at the future

[PassedOut]

luke warm, on Jul 9 2009, 05:00 PM, said:

well the gov't runs the va hospitals, but i don't know if a look at them is a look at the future

I doubt there is much demand for more government-run hospitals. Let's keep the focus on what is doable now and let the government hospitals happen when the time is ripe (if ever).

[mike777]

PassedOut, on Jul 9 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

luke warm, on Jul 9 2009, 05:00 PM, said:

well the gov't runs the va hospitals, but i don't know if a look at them is a look at the future

I doubt there is much demand for more government-run hospitals. Let's keep the focus on what is doable now and let the government hospitals happen when the time is ripe (if ever).

I think with a single payer system you have govt run hosp. and doctors by default.
The government is in charge of making the rationing decisions, not the price mechanism. Of course as Winston pointed out if the government makes better decisions than free capital markets that is good.

"But the plain facts are that government does a better job than private enterprise in some endeavors..."

[Winstonm]

jdonn, on Jul 8 2009, 08:05 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Jul 8 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

But the plain facts are that government does a better job than private enterprise in some endeavors while private enterprise surpasses government in many others.  To turn a blind eye and simply say all big government is wrong is simply to adopt ignorance as ideology, just as it is equally stupid to claim big government is the best solution to all problems.

While I agree, I have never heard anyone (even allowing for your exageration/hyperbole) claim anything like big government is the best solution to all problems. At least I have never heard that in America.

Interestingly enough (or maybe not) when I was writing the quote above I couldn't think of a person to illustrate the hard left position that would equal the hard right position of those like Rush Limbaugh - this doesn't mean they aren't out there but they are much harder to find.

[Lobowolf]

Winstonm, on Jul 9 2009, 07:02 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 8 2009, 08:05 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Jul 8 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

But the plain facts are that government does a better job than private enterprise in some endeavors while private enterprise surpasses government in many others.  To turn a blind eye and simply say all big government is wrong is simply to adopt ignorance as ideology, just as it is equally stupid to claim big government is the best solution to all problems.

While I agree, I have never heard anyone (even allowing for your exageration/hyperbole) claim anything like big government is the best solution to all problems. At least I have never heard that in America.

Interestingly enough (or maybe not) when I was writing the quote above I couldn't think of a person to illustrate the hard left position that would equal the hard right position of those like Rush Limbaugh - this doesn't mean they aren't out there but they are much harder to find.

I can't remember anyone (including Rush Limbaugh) ever taking the opposite position. I'd be surpised if he favored privatizing national defense, for instance. The hard right position isn't that "all big government is wrong." It's that money shouldn't be taken from citizens to pay for the federal government to do things that aren't specifically enumerated in the Constitution.

[Winstonm]

Quote

The hard right position isn't that "all big government is wrong." It's that money shouldn't be taken from citizens to pay for the federal government to do things that aren't specifically enumerated in the Constitution.

No, that is the new Libertarian position, which used to be the conservative position. You may not have kept up with the changing times. The new Democratic position is the old Republican position. And the new Rebuplican position is anyone left of me is unAmerican.

Quote

money shouldn't be taken from citizens to pay for the federal government to do things that aren't specifically enumerated in the Constitution.

I suppose this is why Phil Gramm and others were so opposed to the constitutionally enumerated regulation of commerce and backed deregulation to the point of mimicking the 1920's and its subsequent banking and economic collapses.

[jdonn]

Winstonm, on Jul 9 2009, 07:46 PM, said:

Quote

The hard right position isn't that "all big government is wrong." It's that money shouldn't be taken from citizens to pay for the federal government to do things that aren't specifically enumerated in the Constitution.

No, that is the new Libertarian position, which used to be the conservative position. You may not have kept up with the changing times. The new Democratic position is the old Republican position. And the new Rebuplican position is anyone left of me is unAmerican.

That makes sense. I was thinking I had become more liberal over time, but really liberal has just become more me.

[gcnwilson]

Anyone watch Bill Moyer's Journal with Wendall Potter on PBS?

http://www.pbs.org/m...009/watch2.html

[Winstonm]

luke warm, on Jul 2 2009, 05:12 AM, said:

cherdanno, on Jul 2 2009, 02:59 AM, said:

luke warm, on Jul 1 2009, 05:19 PM, said:

cherdanno, on Jul 1 2009, 03:31 PM, said:

Lobowolf, on Jul 1 2009, 12:18 PM, said:

PassedOut, on Jul 1 2009, 07:00 AM, said:

For the most part, it can be paid for by cutting the waste, fraud, and abuse in the current system.

Do you think there's reason to believe that a government-run system would have dramatically less waste, fraud, and abuse?

Yes.

based on what? the evidence presented by other gov't run systems?

For example. Gov't run health care insurance systems in other countries. Reducing profits in a non-competitive market.

ok, maybe there would be less waste, fraud, etc in this than in most gov't run programs - it's just hard to envision

Perhaps the problem is that we have been so tolerant of waste and fraud in our government that we assume it must be so everywhere else on the planet - somewhat of the extension of the idea of American exceptionalism.

BTW, when I write adversely about American exceptionalism it is mostly to remind myself of the idiocy of a belief that I used to hold, as I was totally caught up in that concept and still have an ingrained belief system to overcome that we Americans are somehow superior. I am not sure exactly how that belief system came to be part of my makeup - I expect a lot came from the us versus them mentality of the cold war era that occurred during my formative years combined with the hell/heaven, black/white type thinking of the fundamentalist evangelical church in which I was reared.

If you have the same problem with exceptionalism that I have, just think that the "shining city on a hill" is Detroit and it puts the whole thing in correct perspective.