[bluejak]

Automatic penalties depend on the jurisdiction, and seem to me anachronistic. People used to get very annoyed with mobile phones, now they are much more tolerant.

[Chris3875]

I might just add (I think I mentioned it in the opening to this thread) that this ring tone wasn't just a "ring ring" - it was a particularly annoying, musical, loud, stupid ring tone that went off not once, but twice - together with the director hissing and the player fumbling and bumbling - all this happening right in the declarer's face when she was 2/3 of the way through playing the hand.

Coincidentally, the mobile phone owner was the same player I (jokingly) suggested that I follow around the week before to correct his bidding during session 1 of this same team event!

David!! now you made me feel bad about not being able to turn off a mobile phone

[nigel_k]

jdonn, on Feb 5 2010, 09:08 AM, said:

Here comes my soapbox I suppose, but to me this comes down to personal responsibility. It seems to be a largely American trait to blame anyone but oneself for anything that goes wrong in life. Sorry if there was a distraction, but there are tons of distractions during every hand coming from every direction. And sorry if the director once blew a contract because he was distracted, but that doesn't mean every 3NT contract that anyone ever blows during a hand where they got distracted from then on is not their fault.

If someone goes down in a hand he could have made it's his fault. He shouldn't get a free pass for his mistakes just because there is a convenient excuse. Where do we draw the line? Volume meters to measure the noise coming from nearby tables? Penalties for taking up 2 parking spots since you make everyone who arrives after you a bit later and more rushed? Adjust my result because I was distract by RHO's colorful sweater?

I very much agree with all of this except the 'largely American' part.

The situation calls for a mild telling off at most, not a procedural penalty and certainly not an adjusted score. If the person was a persistent offender I would eventually dock them 1 VP maybe but it would take more than 2 rings. And there are people who have pretty good reasons for needing to keep their phone on and it would be a pity if they were barred from ever playing bridge.

If you are going to adjust the score, at a minimum there are some facts about the hand that would have to be established. Maybe the contract was down for reasons having nothing to do with declarer's line, or maybe it was always down before the phone rang, or due to declarer's failure to solve a problem that did not arise until after the phone was already in the car. And please don't consider the result at the other table - that's completely irrelevant to what would or would not have happened if the phone had not rung.

[hotShot]

jdonn, on Feb 4 2010, 10:08 PM, said:

Here comes my soapbox I suppose, but to me this comes down to personal responsibility. It seems to be a largely American trait to blame anyone but oneself for anything that goes wrong in life.

You find that everywhere. No chance to claim that for Americans only.

[bluejak]

I think you misunderstand: I am sympathetic to players who cannot turn off a phone.

[jeremy69]

Quote

  A little more consideration, please.

Why? The phone user shows none!

Quote

I think you misunderstand: I am sympathetic to players who cannot turn off a phone.

Oh please! You have acquired this device and have no idea where the off button is nor the requisite language skills to absorb page one of the manual. I think an additional PP (up to 3 now) for the pathetic nature of the excuse.

[mycroft]

Well, the phoner is getting 3NT=, that much is for sure, if it's at all reasonable.

OTOH, this is the ACBL, where there are automatic fines (that are never applied, but that's another story) for cell phones ringing and a call to turn them off at the beginning of the session.

I don't know how I would rule for declarer, but I guess it would be the same as if she called me over because RHO has been babbling off about the Supper Bowl for the last two minutes, after her request to stop and let her concentrate.

This isn't a 3-second distraction, and it's not her fault; of course I don't give her a contract she wouldn't have made, but she doesn't have to make it in the face of (and I don't know where this came from) a dancing stripper entering the room, paid for by the opponents, either.

[blackshoe]

jdonn, on Feb 4 2010, 04:08 PM, said:

Here comes my soapbox I suppose, but to me this comes down to personal responsibility. It seems to be a largely American trait to blame anyone but oneself for anything that goes wrong in life. Sorry if there was a distraction, but there are tons of distractions during every hand coming from every direction. And sorry if the director once blew a contract because he was distracted, but that doesn't mean every 3NT contract that anyone ever blows during a hand where they got distracted from then on is not their fault.

If someone goes down in a hand he could have made it's his fault. He shouldn't get a free pass for his mistakes just because there is a convenient excuse. Where do we draw the line? Volume meters to measure the noise coming from nearby tables? Penalties for taking up 2 parking spots since you make everyone who arrives after you a bit later and more rushed? Adjust my result because I was distract by RHO's colorful sweater?

Let's blow everything out of proportion, shall we?

[blackshoe]

bluejak, on Feb 4 2010, 04:24 PM, said:

Automatic penalties depend on the jurisdiction, and seem to me anachronistic. People used to get very annoyed with mobile phones, now they are much more tolerant.

Not around here, they're not.

[jdonn]

blackshoe, on Feb 4 2010, 07:54 PM, said:

jdonn, on Feb 4 2010, 04:08 PM, said:

Here comes my soapbox I suppose, but to me this comes down to personal responsibility. It seems to be a largely American trait to blame anyone but oneself for anything that goes wrong in life. Sorry if there was a distraction, but there are tons of distractions during every hand coming from every direction. And sorry if the director once blew a contract because he was distracted, but that doesn't mean every 3NT contract that anyone ever blows during a hand where they got distracted from then on is not their fault.

If someone goes down in a hand he could have made it's his fault. He shouldn't get a free pass for his mistakes just because there is a convenient excuse. Where do we draw the line? Volume meters to measure the noise coming from nearby tables? Penalties for taking up 2 parking spots since you make everyone who arrives after you a bit later and more rushed? Adjust my result because I was distract by RHO's colorful sweater?

Let's blow everything out of proportion, shall we?

Haha it's funny, that's what I think adjusting the result is doing.

Not adjusting: You chose your plays, you went down, you keep the score you earned.

Adjusting: Awwww you were distracted by a phone you poor thing, lemme just change the result of the contract for you. I can get you an ice cream cone too, there does that feel better?

[blackshoe]

Heh. If that's your opinion of my directing skills, I guess I should just shoot myself.

[jdonn]

That was really funny if it was meant as a sarcastic example of blowing things out of proportion

[Chris3875]

Isn't it interesting (and I mean that honestly, not tongue in cheek or sarcastic) how so many excellent directors can view one simple incident from such totally different perspectives.

Maybe you had to be there to judge the disruption caused. I should add that we do have a strict policy about mobile phones - this guy obviously slipped through the cracks because he is so new. I do allow people who are expecting an urgent call to keep their phones on during play (hopefully on vibrate or a very quiet ring tone) but they need to confirm it with me prior to play.

[bluejak]

jeremy69, on Feb 5 2010, 12:19 AM, said:

Quote

  A little more consideration, please.

Why? The phone user shows none!

That is not necessarily true. What you mean is that he has made a mistake, and it is not necessarily correct in the game of bridge to automatically penalise for a mistake. Saying he has no consideration is vast overkill. Many many people do many many things that annoy others, often completely unintentionally, and this strange idea that mobile phones are so much worse than everything else is not good for the game.

jeremy69, on Feb 5 2010, 12:19 AM, said:

Quote

I think you misunderstand: I am sympathetic to players who cannot turn off a phone.

Oh please! You have acquired this device and have no idea where the off button is nor the requisite language skills to absorb page one of the manual. I think an additional PP (up to 3 now) for the pathetic nature of the excuse.

Yes, Jeremy, you are a wonderfully competent person. That does not mean that you should automatically be very unsympathetic to someone whose life skills are less than yours.

[helene_t]

Distractions happen all the time and I have never heard about it leading to an adjusted score.

It feels very weird to me to adjust the score on such a basis.

Sometimes the distraction becomes so extreme that I really feel it makes no sense to play the hand as nobody is able to play bridge. Akin to the event that the lights broke and we had to play the cards in darkness, so those with the worst eyes would have to concede multiple revoke penalties on top of the completely absurd table results. I would foul the board in such a case, giving avg+ to the non-offenders if there were such a thing.

Now giving avg+ on a board that could not possible have given such a good result to the non-offenders feels problematic. But I don't think that it is illegal.

So assuming that the distraction was too extreme to accept the table result as valid, I would foul the board. I would like to take that decision immediately, though, instead of letting the players play the board.

[Vampyr]

mycroft, on Feb 5 2010, 12:50 AM, said:

OTOH, this is the ACBL, where there are automatic fines (that are never applied, but that's another story) for cell phones ringing and a call to turn them off at the beginning of the session.

In the EBU there are events where you receive an automatic penalty for having the phone in the room with you -- even if it is turned off.

[jeremy69]

Quote

Yes, Jeremy, you are a wonderfully competent person. That does not mean that you should automatically be very unsympathetic to someone whose life skills are less than yours.

Very kind of you to say so but a bit fulsome considering we are talking about an off switch.
Whilst it is true that people forget to switch phones and other devices off it is also true that some cannot bear to be parted from contact for even a short while and if their phone rings whilst someone is playing a backwash squeeze then that is just hard luck. I don't buy adjusting a score for someone complaining that they have been put off but I think that a steady flow of PP's will curtail the use of said phones in the bridge area.
At world championship level when there is also a security consideration so wedded are players to their phones and organisers to parting them from them that scanners are hired and everyone passes through them before going to or from the closed room.