[Stephen Tu]

Scoring: MP

---

1♦-(1♥)-dbl-(p);
2♣(1)-(2♥)-dbl-(p);
?(2)

(1) Do you prefer some other call here, if so what?

(2) Now what? If you pull, what sort of hand do you need to leave it in? If you pass, what shapes are you supposed to be pulling with?

[whereagles]

If pard had a 4 card minor, he could have bid it.

If he had 5 card spades, he would have bid 1♠.

Therefore he rates to have like a 4333 and some extras. I would pass the double.

[Free]

Partner can hardly have a penalty Dbl here. I'd just bid 2♠. 2♣ the previous round is pretty normal, you don't have any alternative (1♠ might be too encouraging).

[Fluffy]

round before the standard nowadays is to bid 1NT

[gordontd]

Fluffy, on Jul 14 2010, 11:38 AM, said:

round before the standard nowadays is to bid 1NT

Do you have anything to back up this assertion?

[gordontd]

whereagles, on Jul 14 2010, 09:45 AM, said:

If pard had a 4 card minor, he could have bid it.

If he had 5 card spades, he would have bid 1♠.

Therefore he rates to have like a 4333 and some extras. I would pass the double.

I agree. If we can get it one off, it doesn't matter if we were making 2♠.

[gwnn]

I'd bid 1S first time, showing three spades.

[Codo]

gordontd, on Jul 14 2010, 07:43 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jul 14 2010, 11:38 AM, said:

round before the standard nowadays is to bid 1NT

Do you have anything to back up this assertion?

His experience....

I still had bid 2 ♣ and now 2 ♠ to confirm a 3244 or 3154 hand.
Is easy enough.

[cloa513]

What about if he had 4 spades and 5 hearts? He figures not to have decent penalty at the one level so tries for game in spades but opponents are too aggressive (certainly had a few of those) and continues to bid. Its a straight penalty bid now.

[JLOGIC]

Definitely pass 2H X, we have AK AJ and only 4-4 in the minors. Partners most likely shape by far is 4333. We should have them outgunned by a lot, and they are vul at MP. If partner has doubled a second time with a 4 card minor I believe he will have significant defensive values to risk us passing when he has primary support.

As far as the first round of bidding I would bid 1S which is usually a 3 card suit which means usually a weak NT with no heart stopper. If I was 2344 I would bid 1N with our without a heart stopper.

[jdonn]

Definitely agree we should have bid 1♠ the first round, and I wouldn't have been confident in it on my own but outside influences have sold me on pass now.

[gordontd]

Codo, on Jul 14 2010, 01:10 PM, said:

gordontd, on Jul 14 2010, 07:43 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jul 14 2010, 11:38 AM, said:

round before the standard nowadays is to bid 1NT

Do you have anything to back up this assertion?

His experience....

Since not one other person has so far suggested they would have bid 1NT on the previous round with this hand, it can hardly be correct to describe it as "standard".

[jdonn]

It's standard that the 1NT bid doesn't require a stopper. That does not mean it's "standard" to bid it on this hand (whatever that even means).

[gnasher]

gordontd, on Jul 14 2010, 10:08 PM, said:

Since not one other person has so far suggested they would have bid 1NT on the previous round with this hand, it can hardly be correct to describe it as "standard".

Suppose that the overcall were 1♠ and I were 2344 without a spade stop. I prefer to play a style where that would be a 1NT rebid (and a 1♣ opening).

There are even some people opposite whom I would assume that without discussion. But I dont think it's standard.

[jdonn]

What do people bid after 1♣ (1♠) X (P) with xxx xxx AKQ Axxx without discussion? Maybe "standard" is the wrong word but there are times the alternatives seem clearly worse.

[Fluffy]

yeah well, its not as standard as puppet stayman, but kind of

[whereagles]

jdonn, on Jul 14 2010, 09:35 PM, said:

What do people bid after 1♣ (1♠) X (P) with xxx xxx AKQ Axxx without discussion? Maybe "standard" is the wrong word but there are times the alternatives seem clearly worse.

it's an obvious 1NT wtp

[Stephen Tu]

I held the other hand, 4432 12 count, only 1 trump trick, but still +500 on best defense, overcaller had rebid 2♥ on a 2551??. 3nt down 1, maybe I should have just bid 2nt. I really thought partner should have passed, didn't think it was close on this one no matter how you interpret the double. I also kind of prefer old-fashioned penalty doubles in these later round spots, after both partners have had a chance to describe their hands to some extent, ("I think defending is right, don't pull without a weird hand, if I'm unsure what to do I'll just take my best guess between NT/one of your minors"), instead of modern blame-transfer doubles ("I don't know what to do, but don't want to pass, so I'll double. Oh, you didn't know what to do either? You get the blame for guessing wrong"), I can never find a book with clear examples of what hands to double with, and clear examples of what hands opener should pull with vs. leave in, so I always feel like I am guessing on both sides and my results are accordingly random. Does any book like this exist that can set me straight? Can some good player write one so I can buy it?


Also,
There seem to be two camps:
1m-(1♥)-dbl-(p);
1♠/2♠

camp 1:
1♠ = 3 cd sp usually, or 4 cds but the hand got worse (4333 ♥Qxx min or something)
2♠ = 4 cd sp, "I would have bid 2♠ if opps had passed and response was 1♠"

camp 2:
1♠ = normally 4
2♠ = extra values, "I would have jumped to 3♠ or been close to it in uncontested auction"

What's your estimate of the current split in adv/expert partnerships?

[Fluffy]

I ahve no clue Stephen, I play X is 4+ spades, kind of transfer, and 1[S] is exactly 3, but 2♠ is exactly 4. But if you happen to play 1♠ = 5 or more cards and X = 4 cards or maybe less then things are different.

[jdonn]

You posted a thread on that same topic a year or two ago I remember. I've come close to believing camp 2 is pretty much obsolete and I have definitely moved toward camp 1.