[mikeh]

bluecalm, on Aug 26 2010, 05:46 PM, said:

3♥ as 4th suit makes a lot of sense. You may want to bid that with single/half stopper to offer choice of games. For example holding Axx in hearts you want partner to bid 3nt on his Hx but you want to be in 5m opposite 2-1-5-5.
I don't like fancy agreements in specific sequencies. 4th suit as rebid by responder doesn't show natural length according to my meta agreements.
I am not sure about standard especially because bidding culture seems to be different in NA than in Poland/Europe.
I would expect expert+ partner not from America to understand 3♥ as FSF.

I can understand people who want 3♥ to be natural if they play systems when 3♣ may be bid on 4card suit (1-3-5-4 for example). I think such systems are inferior and I don't much care about solving problems they created in the first place but yeah playing such way I would reconsider.

I think you will find that most people who post hands that caused a problem for their partnership are not particularly interested in learning how you and your partner, playing a perhaps highly personalized method, would have solved the problem. Posting your own ideas can be ego-rewarding....and I have done that myself....but it really doesn't address the concerns of most who post here.

Most who post are playing something akin to 'standard' or they are likely to be specifying their non-standard approach...as in the numerous posts we see specifying an acol-type method, or a Precision method, etc.

What most posters appear to want is advice on how they, and their partners, could improve their game within the context of their current general style.

You may think that NA standard is horrible, and virtually unplayable. I suppose that the fact that there are a number of world champions who play a style based on NA standard is irrelevant to you....smugly secure in the merits of your own methods. But the reality is that most of the atb problems on this site are posted by users of NA standard-type methods. I should add, in anticipation of your response being that maybe that's because NA std is so flawed, that this would appear to be because: (1) the plurality of posters play NA methods, and (2) NA methods are used, as best as I can tell, by more players than any other method.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I suppose that the fact that there are a number of world champions who play a style based on NA standard is irrelevant to you....smugly secure in the merits of your own methods.

Well actually my opinion comes directly from seeing what people who have won the most titles at bridge in last decade play.
I don't have strong opinion if precision is better than system which Lauria Versace/Duboin Sementa play or if Fantunes system is better than both of them.

I also think that your point about world champions is not valid as I those people are pros and can afford to have very detailed agreements about untangling for example 3♣ bid which means 2+clubs, unbalanced, 17+ barring some specific distributions like 6d-4H. I am saying that this standard system is:

-very artificial and not intuitive for beginners and anybod who has not played this system for a long time
-very difficult to play by people who are not experts
-virtually impossible to understand for beginners
-just plain inferior without tons of gadgetry and detailed understanding to untangle all the wide range opposite wide range situations.

Anyway, to the 3♥ call.
If I played the system where 3♣ means 17+, 2+♣ then I agree with your view and I think 3♥ should be natural.

[gnasher]

Occasionally having to jump shift or reverse on a non-suit isn't something that only happens in Canada and the adjoining countries. The same problem exists in any natural system where 2♣ is the only strong bid.

I dont see it as a reason to condemn the entire system. The only hand-type that has to invent a 3♣ bid is a strong one-suiter. Such hands are fairly rare, and opener can usually go back to diamonds if the clubs are raised, so losses from having to bid like this are uncommon.

It also isn't a reason to play 1♦-1♠;3♣-3♥ as natural - the combination of opener's havig three hearts and responder's having five is very low frequency. The main reason for playing 3♥ as natural in this auction is so that responder can describe his hand, rather than specifically to find a 5-3 heart fit.

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Aug 27 2010, 03:22 AM, said:

I don't see how it can be easier to bid over a 3♦ bid that shows a wide range of hands, than over a 3♥ bid that shows only half of that range of hands.

You may not believe it IS easier, but I don't believe that you don't see how it CAN BE easier.