[SteveMoe]

5♠=mini-torture bid. South knows the destination is 6♥, and that partner does not have 6♥ cards (no ♥Q equivalent). Holding all the keys missing the trump Q on a nine card fit, 6♥ and not 6NT is the contract. the only thing that makes sense is that 5♠ asks partner to peek and see if trumps split 2-2. --)

[rhm]

Zelandakh, on 2010-September-04, 22:38, said:

If partner asks for the queen and gets a negative response but still makes another try then they are implicitly asking for extra trump length. How you handle specific suit asks here (and generally) is a matter for agreement.

Assuming J2NT shows four card support, wouldn't you show the trump queen if you had extra trump length?
I certainly would with 10 combined trumps.
In other words denying the queen shows that opener has no more than 5 trumps.

Rainer Herrmann

[Lovera]

SteveMoe, on 2015-June-30, 21:50, said:

5♠=mini-torture bid. South knows the destination is 6♥, and that partner does not have 6♥ cards (no ♥Q equivalent). Holding all the keys missing the trump Q on a nine card fit, 6♥ and not 6NT is the contract. the only thing that makes sense is that 5♠ asks partner to peek and see if trumps split 2-2. --)

Instead, because if trump break is easy, needs to think to sure contract in the other eventuality. When partner bids 5NT usually suggest King only in this case. But 5NT has other meaning about any value (i.e. in a suit below query) that cannot bid at next level or upper trump agree. Here with J10 more in trump (Instead of xx) and K in club is better to bid 6♣ meaning Q in spade plus K in suit indicated to difference with 5NT=(yes King).

[Lovera]

In this situation where a Q ask meaning that bidder not has it and when partner denies Q tellling (fourthemore) 10 card fit is not it and being grand excluded eventually 5♠ assume query for controll in suit with answere 5NT for yes K or also Q (and K in other suit that cannot show at other level) whilest,if extra are to pass at six level, 6x answere meaning Q in spade and K in other suit indicated because remain to estabilish if to play 5NT or 6 of agree trump.

[Lovera]

Because it'd usefully to study the other case - one keycard(=Ace out of trump) - being possible to difference vary situations if anyone can indicate a real hand, thanks. Infact what serves is an hand with four keys as 4NT bidder and no Q on the line in trump agree almost initially because this gadget seems to work with a key less too.

[Lovera]

On renowing, as a form of collaboration and/or to show interest, to help me to find any little slam to adapt in heart trump suit for explanation, let us see this hand (from "Bridge Suspense avec Pierre Jais" pagg. 160-161) played by Jean-Michel Boulenger in a friendly duplicate (respect to original hand i have changed spade with heart and in club A and K so having): N ♠ 10872 ♥ 765 ♦ AQ7 ♣ K83 S ♠ A9 ♥ AK10432 ♦ KJ6 ♣ A7 W ♠ KQJ ♥ Q ♦10983 ♣ 96542 E ♠6543 ♥ J98 ♦ 542 ♣ QJ10. In a bidding that is S/N 1♥-1NT, 3♥-4♥, 4NT-5 ♣, 5♦-5♥ now pay attemption because being in S the two top honors is "consequently determinate" as Ace (of diamond in this case) the key card and it allow to explain more clearly the relative answere(s) on 5♠ query.

[Lovera]

It being my willing to explain in more posts, i continue to say about answere(s). Than when RKCB bidder goes on quering in spade ask for Q or doubleton and : if is not answere is trump agree at minimum level as here but having instead Q you must indicate the suit in which A(=key) is and it'd be the case if in spade trade 2 with W's Q so 5♠(=? for Q)-6♦(=suit in which is A indicating Q/xx in spade). This "determination" will be usefull subsequently.

[Lovera]

May you tell me if agree this method that i am applying - these ones are not my biddings - to integrate what i'm going to post ? Thanks.

[Lovera]

Again i don't understand why there is not intervent to point anything or ask for a clearness being me available to. As you can see i am talking at BBO people and it should be usefull to show thinking about this insert methodolgy in RKB. May i have yours partecipations ? Bye.

[Lovera]

When i' ve written my post #29 views were 950.Subsequently are getting to 955 then 963, 972 and now 982. It is more usefull any form to condivide and not to limit yourselves only to see this topic on this stage of analysis or study i am going on. You are welcome if partecipate your thinking about what i have told, bye.

[Lovera]

BudH, on 2010-September-04, 21:18, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

1♥ - 2NT (Jacoby)
3♦ - 4NT (RKC 1430)
5♣ - 5♦ (trump queen ask)
5♥ - 5♠
5NT - 6♥
P

Is 5♠ a general king ask? Or is 5♠ asking specifically about the ♠K? Note that in this case the trump queen was denied by opener.

[Yes, I know that's a disgusting opening bid by North.....]

Hallo, about your topic this situation is divided on two cases : Queen lacking on the line when partner tells 1 keycard that can be in trump - your case - or indicating an Ace aside trump. I, to complete possibilites, starting post #25 i' m going to analyzed about answeres that are. Than, in this phase, i invite you to tell me what do you think or if you are agree about it. Bye.

[Lovera]

This is another hand that i have taken from Romanet book "Total Bridge" (i have only inverted club with heart and K and 9 position). North ♠ Kx ♥ 9xxx ♦ AKxx ♣ Kxx South ♠ Axxx ♥ AKxxx ♦ xx ♣ Ax. Bidding (S/N) : 1♥-2♦, 2NT-3♥, 4NT-5♣, 5♦-5♥, 5♠ and N not answer 6♥ because has not losers in spade nor 6♦ only 3rd round indicating Ace of diamond neither 5NT because King is not alone whilest bidding 6♣ with meaning of positive answere about 3rd round control with K in query suit plus K in club. Now S knows that can ruff spade and en passant if trumps are divided 2-2 between opp there are 13 tricks.

[Lovera]

Free, on 2010-September-06, 03:17, said:

It's a pretty useless call in this situation. You ask for the trump Q, if partner doesn't have it then you normally signoff in 5 or 6.

The only reason to continue bidding something else is if you have 1 extra trump, looking for another extra trump in partner's hand. With 10 trumps the Q is considered irrelevant. Since opener and responder can have longer trumps, you might want to be able to look for a 10th trump and continue bidding.

Basically it depends a lot on the situation:
- If Jacoby showed 3+♥ support, then it may make sence to continue the auction because you have 4 trumps and opener may have 6 (knowing only about 9 combined trumps). After the trump Q, Kings are usually asked, so I'd look at 5♠ as a King ask if you also have an extra trump. Response is pretty simple: 6♥ = no extra ♥, other calls show an extra ♥ and are a response to the King ask.
- If Jacoby showed 4+♥ support, then 5♠ is useless since opener would show the ♥Q with a 6th trump. And responder with 5 trumps wouldn't ask for the Q. Only thing left to look for is the choice between 6♥ and 6NT. No idea what 5♠ should mean here though.

The answere must not be considered automatic because if, lacking Q with an hand balanced and any K aside, we bid, without extra, 6 ♥(=trump agree) can be that slam is not and than, in this case we must stay on 5♥ denying 10 card fit and so Q, whilest with an extra i.e. a second round control (K/x) we can indicate it showing Q or 10 card fit without Q.

[Lovera]

Look at this hand to understund better what i am talking :

{comments}

---

the other tables bidding was more simple ending always in 4♥. I think here is better to bid 3♠ as splinter so partner knows about 1-6-3-3. After 4♥ eventual 4NT gets 5♣(=1key the Ace of club) and 5♦=(? for Q). Now with 10 card fit Q should be indicated also if lacking but here at six level and with any extra taking one down if bidded 6♥. But if is changed the hand with one fewer diamond now we have possibility to indicate Q/10 card fit bidding 6♦=(K/x second round control) for little slam.
North : ♠ QJ52 ♥ 10854 ♦ 42 ♣ AJ3 South ♠ 7 ♥ AKJ962 ♦ A65 ♣ K87
Bidding : W - N - E p S 1♥, p - 2♥ - p - 3♣, p - 4♥ - all p.
Spade are divided 4-4 (A in W), heart are 2-1 (Q in E), club Q is second in W.
(In S is debitschka) Sat. Jul 11 07:27 PM ACBL indy MP Robot duplicate classic 12 boards.

[Lovera]

As i have said in "How not to get to 7" in Interesting bridge hands this type of bidding and relatives answeres becaming from the same source that is the "Asking Bid" by Ely Culbertson. But this one was developed in two time. This part that i am discussing is correlated with the Old Asking Bid (when the answer [at an asking bid previously done] has indicated an Ace..).

[Lovera]

Until now we have considered 5♠ as query for 3rd round controll correlated with the Ace suit indicated. But what about 5NT instead of ? The meaning is not for extra lengh but information on King(s) starting cue bid but and when the answer is in the suit of the Ace this meaning King (and Ace) plus another King aside. Let' s suppose that has been indicated(=determinated) the Ace of diamond. Then after 5NT if 6♣ is the answer means King of club and Ace of diamond; with 6♦ as answer AK ♦ and another King.

[Lovera]

This integrative post it'd be considered at analysis level (that in bridge should be implemented). We are studying the case AKxxx in trump agree and relative support for (eventual) 10 card fit (lacking Q) but is interesting (and i have seen that's happening in real play) to consider its "reverse": AKx(x) as support with player that starts RKCB having so obteined :1) to know all existent controlls aside agree trump; 2) having partner bidded previously trump suit necessarly must have Queen and this one indipendently longness (that usually is 5 or 6 cards).

[nullve]

Maybe this is a good idea (as part of spiral scan):

...4N[RKC(♥)]-5♣[1/4 KC]; ?:

5♦ (trump Q(=1st card) ask, doesn't deny the trump Q)
...5♥ = no trump Q
......(...)
......5♠ = 3rd card ask
......5N = 5th card ask
......etc.
5♥ = to play
5♠ = 2nd card ask
5N = 4th card ask
etc.

Nothing new, I suppose.

[mgoetze]

Ah, 2010, back when 655321 and MFA were still here to dispense advice.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2010-September-04, 22:38, said:

If partner asks for the queen and gets a negative response but still makes another try then they are implicitly asking for extra trump length. How you handle specific suit asks here (and generally) is a matter for agreement.

Does the J2N show 4 card support (it does for us) in this case partner would have already shown the Q if he had 6.