BBO Discussion Forums: Blue Team Club - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 5 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Blue Team Club Interested in People Who Play This System

#21 User is offline   Balrog49 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 72
  • Joined: 2012-June-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashua, NH
  • Interests:Music, reading, history.

Posted 2014-March-03, 11:13

View Postnige1, on 2014-March-03, 10:38, said:

Simply Blue describes the version played by John Durden, an excellent player, who regularly headed the EBU master-point lists.

I've seen many strong pairs who win consistently playing what I consider to be absurd methods. Good bridge is what wins tournaments, not systems.

I remember buying a copy of Simply Blue and being disgusted with it. Unfortunately, my bridge books are in storage so I don't know whether or not I kept it.

The best sources of information about Blue Team Club are:

1. The "Bible" (The Italian Blue Team Bridge Book by Garozzo and Forquet). It's difficult but not impossible to find a copy at a reasonable price. It contains more examples and more detail than the Garozzo - Yallouze book, which is really more like a simplified summary.

Sometime in the late '60s, a well known player/director learned to speak and read Italian just so that he could read the original "Bible," which included things left out of the English translation. There were also a few things that Garozzo and/or Forquet admitted having left out of the "Bible" because they were too complicated for average players. I've never been able to get my hands on that information.

2. The ACBL World Championship books from the years the Blue Team played Neapolitan or Blue Team Club. There's nothing better than seeing how the system was actually played (there were a few surprises) but those are almost impossible to get these days.

The World Championship books show example after example of very long auctions in which the Italians cue-bid their way to slams, particularly grand slams, missed at the other table. It's worth studying the Roman Club and Little Roman Club slam auctions as well as Garozzo-Forquet's to understand the amazing subtlety of Italian cue-bidding.

Omar's book is a fun read but not nearly complete enough to learn the system.
0

#22 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,995
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2014-March-03, 12:28

View Postjohnu, on 2014-March-02, 22:16, said:

Yikes :o

I think I would rather live with suit length ambiguity rather than rebid a random 5 card suit.

1-1n-2 not so bad on Flannery hand forcing nt people may be bidding 2 card suit lol
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#23 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,295
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-March-03, 14:41

View PostBalrog49, on 2014-March-03, 11:03, said:

One of the first mistakes a beginner makes is a strong canape (reverse or jump shift) with 15-16 HCP, nine cards in two suits, and scattered values. A strong canape normally promises ten cards in the two suits. When made with only nine cards, the values must be very concentrated. Responder knows that aces in the side suits are valuable cover cards but kings are of questionable value unless the lead is coming up to them.

With those unsuitable hands, describe your distribution as if you held a minimum and show your extra values later. If responder makes a two over one there will be no problem. If responder bids on the one level and his hand is worth only one bid, you probably aren't missing a game. And if you play Reverse Flannery, you never have to make a bad reverse with 5-4.


And even with 10 cards in 2 suits, I wouldn't reverse with bad suits.

ie

Qxxxx
A
Kxxxx
AK

as a 16 point example not worth a reverse.


On the other hand, I would reverse on this 14 point hand:

AKJ10x
xx
AQ10x
xx

For those unfamiliar with BTC, reverses are not game forcing, and you could come up with responder hands where the reverse could be passed.
0

#24 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,295
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-March-03, 14:50

View Poststeve2005, on 2014-March-03, 12:28, said:

1-1n-2 not so bad on Flannery hand forcing nt people may be bidding 2 card suit lol


I think the 2 rebid is much worse. The 2 rebid is frequently on 3, and 2 is an infrequent possibility. Responder will have real clubs to pass 2. 2 usually shows 6+ so that will frequently be the final contract when responder has a minimum. You might miss a decent 4-3 spade part score, or responder may not be willing to try to improve the contract with a 6 card minor suit if it's likely you have 6+ hearts.
0

#25 User is offline   Balrog49 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 72
  • Joined: 2012-June-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashua, NH
  • Interests:Music, reading, history.

Posted 2014-March-03, 15:57

View Postjohnu, on 2014-March-03, 14:41, said:

...I would reverse on this 14 point hand:

AKJ10x
xx
AQ10x
xx

For those unfamiliar with BTC, reverses are not game forcing, and you could come up with responder hands where the reverse could be passed.

Just to clarify, after 1-1 opener would bid 2 to show that hand. Although we call it a jump shift, the Italians used the term "reverse" to mean pretty much any strong canape.

The auction 1-1-1 shows a hand something like:

KQJx
xx
Axxx
QJx

where a 1 opening would leave opener with no good rebid over a 2 response. A rebid of 3 would show five (or four very good) clubs because responder may be bidding a fragment in preparation for a reverse.
0

#26 User is offline   Balrog49 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 72
  • Joined: 2012-June-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashua, NH
  • Interests:Music, reading, history.

Posted 2014-March-04, 17:47

Here's one of the strangest situations I've ever found myself in playing Blue Team Club. It was a regional Flight A Swiss against a top seed.

2 was not forcing
X showed a preference for bidding rather than defending

I had no idea what to do. I tanked for a while and bid 4, hoping partner had a good six-card suit. I didn't realize that the opponents would assume I had a reverse with diamonds and hearts, not diamonds and spades! We collected 800 at our table (dropped a trick) and 50 at the other table when declarer went down in 3.

I wasn't thrilled with partner's 2 "negative free bid." I would have doubled, leading to a very different result. Fortunately, we were playing "high-tech" doubles in forcing pass situations in which the meanings of pass and double are reversed.

Oddly enough, the only makable game our way is 3NT. In retrospect, it would have been a reasonable decision, even with a club void.
0

#27 User is offline   dick payne 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 2014-February-01

Posted 2014-March-07, 12:28

I started playing Blue Club when Reese's book came out and have been playing it ever since. Over 45 years a system does not remain static. All systems have their strength and weaknesses. If there is something that Acol does better than Blue Club why not use it? People are agonising what to do with 5-4 in the majors, Acol has no problem. The 13-17 no trump was mind bogglingly clever with its intricate 2C and 2D responses. That was until you had picked up a few 8-9 counts (not a surprising hand for responder to hold) and done the wrong thing. Then you began to realise that you were being outbid by a simple Acol no trump. The 2C bid was another horror Kxx / x / xxx / AKJxxx and AJxxx / x / x AKQxxx were both 2C bids If responder held four spades to Axxx or Kxxx the first hand wants to play in 2C and the second in 4S.
For about eight years I refused to change anything from the Blue Club book. Everyone wants to paint some go faster stripes on his new car after he has had it for a couple of months. Personalising the system is almost de rigueur
0

#28 User is offline   Balrog49 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 72
  • Joined: 2012-June-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashua, NH
  • Interests:Music, reading, history.

Posted 2014-March-07, 13:13

View Postdick payne, on 2014-March-07, 12:28, said:

I started playing Blue Club when Reese's book came out and have been playing it ever since. Over 45 years a system does not remain static. All systems have their strength and weaknesses. If there is something that Acol does better than Blue Club why not use it? People are agonising what to do with 5-4 in the majors, Acol has no problem. The 13-17 no trump was mind bogglingly clever with its intricate 2C and 2D responses. That was until you had picked up a few 8-9 counts (not a surprising hand for responder to hold) and done the wrong thing. Then you began to realise that you were being outbid by a simple Acol no trump. The 2C bid was another horror Kxx / x / xxx / AKJxxx and AJxxx / x / x AKQxxx were both 2C bids If responder held four spades to Axxx or Kxxx the first hand wants to play in 2C and the second in 4S.
For about eight years I refused to change anything from the Blue Club book. Everyone wants to paint some go faster stripes on his new car after he has had it for a couple of months. Personalising the system is almost de rigueur

Please describe how the Acol 1NT is different from the Standard American 1NT with non-forcing Stayman, Transfers, etc.

I've never had a problem with the Blue Team 13-17 notrump other than convincing people to play it, which I gave up a long time ago. Having a 1 opening guarantee three cards is nice but I'm happy give it up in order to play a notrump structure that everyone understands. In these days of the nebulous 1, which some people play as a possible void, who really cares whether or not 1 can be 3-3-2-5 once in a blue moon?

And I've never had a problem with the 2 opener. In fact, the auction 2-2-any-4 (forcing to 5 or slam) often results in slam swings on hands where the natural bidders stop in 3NT. 2 also has a preemptive effect. Responding to 2 is an area where the World Championship books provide great examples.

A few awkward auctions occur when opener has something like Kxxx Ax x AJxxxx and the auction goes 1-2. You have to bid a space-consuming 3 and hope for the best.

Not meaning to pick nits, Terence Reese didn't write the "Blue Club" book. He "adapted" the Garozzo-Yallouze book, which was probably written in Italian. Leon Yallouze was a member of the famous "Omar Sharif Bridge Circus" team along with Garozzo, Belladonna, and Claude Delmouly.
0

#29 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,295
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-March-08, 01:51

View Postdick payne, on 2014-March-07, 12:28, said:

Personalising the system is almost de rigueur


The core of the system is still world class, but after 50 years, some of the treatments have seen better days for sure.

Some things I consider almost mandatory to change to have a competitive system these days:

  • Responder canapes - Preempts your own bidding, opener's rebid can mess up your planned reverse, IMO no reason why you shouldn't bid your longest suit first.
  • Wide range 1NT opening (a weak NT with clubs only or a strong NT) - What were they thinking when they put that into the system? You could switch to strong only NT, or weak NT's.
  • 2 17-24 4441 hands - Very complex system of responses for a less than .2% chance you'll be able to open. Comes up once in a blue moon, good chance of a system forget, could be used for a much more common opening bid. 1 should take care of almost all of these hands.
  • 3 opening bid showing opening bid and very strong clubs - Open 2 or 1 if top of range.
  • 2/1 responses - I recommend game forcing 2/1 responses instead of the nonforcing responder rebids of the suit or 2NT.
  • Change the 2NT response to a forcing raise (e.g. Jacoby 2NT)
  • Change to semi-forcing 1NT response to 1 of a major


Anybody have other favorite changes?
0

#30 User is offline   dick payne 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 2014-February-01

Posted 2014-March-08, 06:17

Johnu makes the point that one must appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of Blue club and give a lot of thought to such weaknesses as are bound to occur. That is the point. Not everyone will agree as to what those changes should be. For example transfers in response to 1M are about 57 times better than Jacoby, I have given a glimpse of these elsewhere on this site. According to the cognoscenti these can only be used if RHO doubles 1M. I hope their opponents are more obliging than mine
0

#31 User is offline   dick payne 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 2014-February-01

Posted 2014-March-08, 08:27

Mingoni
People speak highly of the Italian Blue team book. If you see a book with an author you know and a second author that you have never heard of you can bet your bottom dollar that it was the unknown who wrote it and the expert card player may or may not have checked it carefully, Bertie Bloggs may or may not be a good theoretician. When I read Vernes’ “levees totales” and wrote my “TNT” in English. I sent it to Reese knowing that if he liked it he would publish it under his own name and perhaps offer me 10% of the proceeds. He did not go that far, he wanted me to pay him to read it
The “Sunday morning bus to West Kilburn” has the meaning that you can’t remember what you did the previous night and you don’t remember where you were, but you do know where you are going because it says that on the front of the bus. Italian cue bidding takes about twenty years to learn, and requires digging yourself out of dozens of elephant traps before you graduate.
In Reese’s book on the the Blue Club he alludes briefly to “ uneconomical cue bidding2 suggesting that this is something which the expert bidder might aspire to. Take my word for it, it is a recipe for total disaster
Mingoni has two excellent Sunday morning buses in his book
Kxx Axxx
Kxx Ax
Ax Kxx
AJxxx KQxx
1NT 2D
2NT 3C
4C 4D
4H 4S
5D 5H
5S 6C
Opener with his first three bids has shown 15 points with 3325 distribution. Thereafter we have cue bidding. Junior hand’s bid of 5D is suggesting a grand (partner is the boss) 5H CONFIRMS THE POSSIBILITY OF A GRAND. (partner is perfect and a grand has a snowball’s chance in hell This is not up for discussion as one might argue the merits of Flannery and Reverse Flannery. This is CARVED IN STONE.. If you do not understand or disagree go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass Go do not collect £200.
One could be forgiven for assuming that Mingoni has made a mistake. Let us be generous and look at his next example of a slam after a 1NT opening bid
Axx QJx
Kx AJxx
Kxxx Ax
AKxx QJxx
1NT 2D
3C 3D
3NT 4C
4D 4H
4S 5D
5H 6C
As before, and as always, junior hand has shown the boss what he has got. In this case up to 3NT he has shown 16-17 and two four card minors. The bid of 5D which forces the partnership to a small slam but does not bid it Is A GRAND SLAM TRY. If you do not believe it you have just landed on a snake and must start again.
It appears that the ethos of this website is to dismiss other people’s ideas as summarily as possible in order to mount one’s own hobby horse as quickly as possible. These examples are on pp 242,243 of Mingoni’s book. Judge for yourselves
0

#32 User is offline   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,164
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2014-March-08, 09:42

View Postjohnu, on 2014-March-08, 01:51, said:



Anybody have other favorite changes?


Playing MOSCITO instead
Alderaan delenda est
0

#33 User is offline   Balrog49 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 72
  • Joined: 2012-June-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashua, NH
  • Interests:Music, reading, history.

Posted 2014-March-08, 10:20

> Some things I consider almost mandatory to change to have a competitive system these days:

Two-over-over with four-card majors? Please.

What you're describing sounds a lot like modern Precision, which is essentially two-over-one over a five-card major. That's a competitive system but it's not Blue Team Club, even if you replace the responses to the Precision 1 with control responses.

> People speak highly of the Italian Blue team book. If you see a book with an author you know and a second author that you have never heard of you can bet your bottom dollar that it was the unknown who wrote it and the expert card player may or may not have checked it carefully...

I don't know anything about Enzo Mingoni but I think it's safe to assume that he was the editor or "ghost writer," who is a necessary participant in virtually all books ostensibly written by people who aren't writers and may not be able to write at all.

> It appears that the ethos of this website is to dismiss other people's ideas as summarily as possible in order to mount one's own hobby horse as quickly as possible.

I thought it was a discussion about Blue Team Club, not a discussion of ways to change Blue Team Club into something it's not. I think of the system as a 1969 Ferrari 312P. If you've never seen one, take a look at http://wall.alphacod...g.php?i=270549.

An original 312P wouldn't be able to compete with today's Le Mans prototypes. Of course there have been advances in automotive technology. You could modify the car to the point where it's competitive but it wouldn't be a 312P any more.

If I owned a 312P (fat chance), I'd keep it 100 per cent original because it's a work of art. If I intended to race the car, I'd replace some parts, but I wouldn't try to make it into an Audi R18.

As to Italian cue bidding, the historical record stands for itself. Read the World Championship books and you'll see how it actually worked. Yes, it required a great deal of situational logic, judgment, practice, and experience. That's an investment very few players are willing to make these days.
0

#34 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,295
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-March-08, 13:31

View Posthrothgar, on 2014-March-08, 09:42, said:

Playing MOSCITO instead


I thought you pretty much stopped playing because this wasn't a "legal" system :unsure:
0

#35 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,295
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-March-08, 13:53

View PostBalrog49, on 2014-March-08, 10:20, said:

> Some things I consider almost mandatory to change to have a competitive system these days:

Two-over-over with four-card majors? Please.

What you're describing sounds a lot like modern Precision, which is essentially two-over-one over a five-card major. That's a competitive system but it's not Blue Team Club, even if you replace the responses to the Precision 1 with control responses.


4 card majors and canape don't sound anything like Precision to me :)

Incorrect or not, I still call my system Blue Team Club, because it's too complicated to say Blue Team Club except for a).... b).... c)..... d)..... etc

If you think I've made changes, they seem mild compared to the changes to original BTC that Arturo Franco and Marco Pancotti have made to their version Franco-Pancotti Blue Team Club.
0

#36 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,031
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2014-March-08, 19:10

View Postdick payne, on 2014-March-08, 08:27, said:

Mingoni
People speak highly of the Italian Blue team book. If you see a book with an author you know and a second author that you have never heard of you can bet your bottom dollar that it was the unknown who wrote it and the expert card player may or may not have checked it carefully, Bertie Bloggs may or may not be a good theoretician. When I read Vernes' "levees totales" and wrote my "TNT" in English. I sent it to Reese knowing that if he liked it he would publish it under his own name and perhaps offer me 10% of the proceeds. He did not go that far, he wanted me to pay him to read it
Presumably, Joe Amsbury was 2nd choice :) I learnt about total tricks from your excellent book. I hadn't heard of Segal before reading Segal and Robson's book but it impressed me. I haven't read Mingoni's effort and I'm prepared to take your word for it; but perhaps that book is an exception.

View Postdick payne, on 2014-March-08, 08:27, said:

It appears that the ethos of this website is to dismiss other people’s ideas as summarily as possible in order to mount one’s own hobby horse as quickly as possible.
Most discussion-sites adopt that ethos :)
0

#37 User is offline   dick payne 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 2014-February-01

Posted 2014-March-09, 05:41

Thank you nige1 for telling me that antipathy is the norm on this web site. Without that knowledge one could easily become discouraged
0

#38 User is offline   dick payne 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 2014-February-01

Posted 2014-March-09, 07:06

Diamonds
If a Precision player tells you that he is quite happy that his 1D opening bid may hold 1-7 diamonds, there is nothing to be said, but one cannot help thinking that in the land of the blind the one eyed man is King
I gave up opening two card diamond suits largely as a result of the following amusing specimen from the archives
Dealer North, E W vul Pairs scoring

652
K73
98
AKQ108
K7 AJ943
65 QJ984
1075432 AK6
J43 -
Q108
A102
QJ
97532
W N E S
1D 1S 1NT
Pass Pass 2H Pass
Pass 2NT 3H Dble
3S Pass Pass Dble
All pass
On an apparent misfit it is often good technique to lead a trump. If it loses a trick, that trick often comes back. I led a trump. Not in my wildest nightmares could I have imagined that the opponents would make 3Sx +2 with the aid of six tricks in partner’s “suit” It was not very amusing at the time
Your average common or garden expert is proficient in counting up to the magic figure of 25. But if he is playing an amorphous 1C or 1D he is floundering like a stranded fish if there is a minor suit slam. Learned treatises on Slam Bidding will contain 70% of slams in spades, 25% in hearts and the occasional carefully contrived oddity which comes to peaceful rest in six of a minor
My legal club system has 1D as 4+ diamonds. The response of 2D is forcing with primary support, a game or slam try, asking first for a shortage (Do not dismiss this with a knee jerk reaction. It is sound theory ) In my illegal variable forcing pass system progey of the same club system I have a natural club and a natural diamond bid. That takes a bit of doing. It requires a bit more imagination than the agony of deciding between Flannery and Reverse Flannery. On the assumption that it is improbable that people will be interested, I will refrain from the boring details
0

#39 User is offline   glen 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,632
  • Joined: 2003-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ottawa, Canada
  • Interests:Military history, WW II wargames

Posted 2014-March-09, 08:09

View Postdick payne, on 2014-March-09, 07:06, said:

... Not in my wildest nightmares could I have imagined that the opponents would make 3Sx +2 with the aid of six tricks in partner’s “suit” ...

It's important to realize that the modern Precision 1 nebulous opening is very often a weak notrump, and has no suit much like opening 1NT has no suit. See Meckwell Lite and other versions that are played by most of the top big club partnerships, your rhetoric (in the land of the blind, not in my wildest nightmares, floundering like a stranded fish) notwithstanding.
'I hit my peak at seven' Taylor Swift
0

#40 User is offline   dick payne 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: 2014-February-01

Posted 2014-March-10, 08:19

Glen, I am sure you will know that 1D on a non-existent suit is common in Precision, because they play five card majors In Blue 1D on a doubleton is very rare. It has to be precisely 3325 distribution. Previously I would have apologised for my imaginative metaphor, but Nige1 has warned me that I must expect caustic comment
0

Share this topic:


  • 5 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users