[mike777]

"....Of course, anyone who thinks that Heinlein is the epitome of philosophical thinking, and that the 'wisdom' of Lazarus Long constitutes real insight is likely to find critical thinking to be difficult. FWIW, I enjoyed Heinlein when I was 18 (I was a young 18), and thought that Lazarus Long was a great character. I like to think I have matured in my thinking a little bit since then "


MikeH says it well,and I love Heinlein, love, though at times I have my own personal doubts about the very last line.

[Daniel1960]

blackshoe, on 2015-April-06, 17:20, said:

Who is Ben Adler, and why should we care what he says?

Instead of Ben Adler, one may want to read Dan Kahan. Both liberals and conservatives tend to believe that research which supports their own positions.

http://www.vox.com/2...makes-us-stupid

[blackshoe]

Daniel1960, on 2015-April-29, 05:50, said:

Instead of Ben Adler, one may want to read Dan Kahan. Both liberals and conservatives tend to believe that research which supports their own positions.

That doesn't really surprise me. I haven't read the linked article yet, but I will.

[blackshoe]

y66, on 2015-April-06, 18:42, said:

I did not know that Libertarians used the first person plural pronoun "we".

I am not a Libertarian.

[blackshoe]

mikeh, on 2015-April-28, 17:59, said:

Of course, anyone who thinks that Heinlein is the epitome of philosophical thinking, and that the 'wisdom' of Lazarus Long constitutes real insight is likely to find critical thinking to be difficult.

The fact that I quoted Heinlein does not imply that I think he is "the epitome of philosophical thinking". For that matter, who do you think fits that bill? If you'll provide me with an approved list of philosophers I'll try to limit my future quotes to authors from your list.

[hrothgar]

blackshoe, on 2015-April-29, 12:56, said:

The fact that I quoted Heinlein does not imply that I think he is "the epitome of philosophical thinking". For that matter, who do you think fits that bill? If you'll provide me with an approved list of philosophers I'll try to limit my future quotes to authors from your list.

You are welcome to quote from any of the following

1. John Rawls
2. Thomas Hobbes
3. John Stuart Mill
4. Plato
5. Mikhail Bakunin

Extra credit if you show evidence that you actually understand the points that they are making

[Zelandakh]

Anyone care to comment on Larsen B?

[PassedOut]

Zelandakh, on 2015-May-18, 05:47, said:

Anyone care to comment on Larsen B?

Sure, but what's happening should be no surprise to anyone: NASA: 10,000-Year-Old Ice Shelf in Antarctica Will Soon Be Completely Gone

Quote

“We have this rare opportunity of this ice shelf destabilizing and eventually collapsing in front of our eyes,” said Ala Khazendar, the study’s lead author in a video statement. “It is certainly a warning.”

Khazendar’s co-author Eric Rignot agrees, emailing me that the ongoing breakup of Larsen B is significant mostly in its lesson that change in Antarctica can happen more quickly than scientists had previously thought possible. “Its importance is that it shows what will happen to the huge glaciers farther south once their ice shelves break up to the point of no return.”

Next up for collapse is the Larsen C, the size of Scotland, which has been around for 150,000 years. Should it disappear, it could require a re-write of sea level rise plans for coastal cities worldwide. Last August, I wrote about what that near-term worse case scenario might look like: Should its melt rate continue to trend above previous estimates, Antarctica may produce an extra foot of sea level rise by 2100, which would pose a threat to low-lying coastal areas worldwide. (For example: A post-Sandy study of New York City’s flooded subway system showed one tunnel escaped flooding by just three inches, saving the city hundreds of millions of dollars.) A new study on Larsen C, which now has a giant crack in its surface, showed that it’s now melting both from above and below, thanks in part to warmer ocean temperatures.

In another thread, folks are concerned about dealing with the influx of immigrants caused by our idiotic military adventures. The influx of immigrants that will be forced by our idiotic non-response to humanly caused climate change will dwarf what's happening now.

[Zelandakh]

I was hoping for something a little more detailed than just the media coverage. There are a half dozen such reports but none say very much. I know the immediate effect is basically zero, in as much as this is floating ice, but there are potentially significant longer-term impacts. And I figure AI has something to say too...

[PassedOut]

Zelandakh, on 2015-May-18, 10:38, said:

I was hoping for something a little more detailed than just the media coverage.

From NASA: NASA Study Shows Antarctica’s Larsen B Ice Shelf Nearing Its Final Act

Quote

Ice shelves are the gatekeepers for glaciers flowing from Antarctica toward the ocean. Without them, glacial ice enters the ocean faster and accelerates the pace of global sea level rise. This study, the first to look comprehensively at the health of the Larsen B remnant and the glaciers that flow into it, has been published online in the journal Earth and Planetary Science Letters.

Khazendar's team used data on ice surface elevations and bedrock depths from instrumented aircraft participating in NASA's Operation IceBridge, a multiyear airborne survey campaign that provides unprecedented documentation annually of Antarctica's glaciers, ice shelves and ice sheets. Data on flow speeds came from spaceborne synthetic aperture radars operating since 1997.

Khazendar noted his estimate of the remnant's remaining life span was based on the likely scenario that a huge, widening rift that has formed near the ice shelf's grounding line will eventually crack all the way across. The free-floating remnant will shatter into hundreds of icebergs that will drift away, and the glaciers will rev up for their unhindered move to the sea.

Located on the coast of the Antarctic Peninsula, the Larsen B remnant is about 625 square miles (1,600 square kilometers) in area and about 1,640 feet (500 meters) thick at its thickest point. Its three major tributary glaciers are fed by their own tributaries farther inland.

"What is really surprising about Larsen B is how quickly the changes are taking place," Khazendar said. "Change has been relentless."

The remnant's main tributary glaciers are named Leppard, Flask and Starbuck -- the latter two after characters in the novel Moby Dick. The glaciers' thicknesses and flow speeds changed only slightly in the first couple of years following the 2002 collapse, leading researchers to assume they remained stable. The new study revealed, however, that Leppard and Flask glaciers have thinned by 65-72 feet (20-22 meters) and accelerated considerably in the intervening years. The fastest-moving part of Flask Glacier had accelerated 36 percent by 2012 to a flow speed of 2,300 feet (700 meters) a year -- comparable to a car accelerating from 55 to 75 mph.

Flask's acceleration, while the remnant has been weakening, may be just a preview of what will happen when the remnant breaks up completely. After the 2002 Larsen B collapse, the glaciers behind the collapsed part of the shelf accelerated as much as eightfold – comparable to a car accelerating from 55 to 440 mph.

Anyone truly interested in studying all the supporting details can rent or buy the full text of the report for a small fee here.

[MrAce]

http://www.cnn.com/2...pear/index.html

[Al_U_Card]

What more needs to be said than Antarctic sea-ice is increasing steadily at a record-breaking pace? Even the polar ice is increasing. Only the WAIS is showing warming and that is small potatoes compared to the rest of that particular continent.

Mass Balance of the Antarctic Ice Sheet 1992-2008 from ERS and ICESat: Gains exceed losses
- Presented by Jay Zwally, NASA Goddard, USA
ISMASS 2012 is an activity of the renewed SCAR/IASC ISMASS expert group, which focuses on the mass balance of ice-sheets and their contribution to sea level changes. The workshop is sponsored by ICSU, SCAR, IASC, WCRP, IGS, and IACS with support from CliC and APECS.

[PassedOut]

Al_U_Card, on 2015-May-18, 16:52, said:

What more needs to be said than Antarctic sea-ice is increasing steadily at a record-breaking pace?

Yes, that is additional concrete evidence of the accelerating loss of freshwater ice from Antarctic glaciers. The melting freshwater is lighter than saltwater and freezes before saltwater does. The Antarctic freshwater melt spreads over the saltwater and expands the area of sea ice, now at a record-breaking pace.

Indeed, "What more needs to be said...?"

[Al_U_Card]

PassedOut, on 2015-May-18, 17:06, said:

Yes, that is additional concrete evidence of the accelerating loss of Antarctic freshwater ice. The melting freshwater is lighter than saltwater and freezes before saltwater does. The Antarctic freshwater melt spreads over the saltwater and expands the area of sea ice, now at a record-breaking pace.

Indeed, "What more needs to be said...?"

"Freshwater" ice? Do go on...

[MrAce]

Al_U_Card, on 2015-May-18, 19:46, said:

"Freshwater" ice? Do go on...

He could continue of course, but there is no cure for a blind heart and I think he is smart enough to not feed a troll.

[Al_U_Card]

MrAce, on 2015-May-18, 21:31, said:

He could continue of course, but there is no cure for a blind heart and I think he is smart enough to not feed a troll.

Larsen B, after 10,000 years of interglacial warmth is finally melting and breaking up. What a surprise! You were expecting it to remain frozen? Just look at the Holocene temperatures and compare them with the other recent (geologically) inter-glacials. Look at the last million years of global temperatures. Catastrophe averted. Phew!

[hrothgar]

Al_U_Card, on 2015-May-19, 16:40, said:

Larsen B, after 10,000 years of interglacial warmth is finally melting and breaking up. What a surprise! You were expecting it to remain frozen? Just look at the Holocene temperatures and compare them with the other recent (geologically) inter-glacials. Look at the last million years of global temperatures. Catastrophe averted. Phew!

For Christ's sake...

You've spent years claiming that the the Ice Pack at the North Pole is GROWING
You've spent a decade explaining how there is more and more ice at the South Pole.

And now, when new evidence conclusively demonstrates that one of the big ice sheets on the planet is collapsing, you spin on a dime, and claim that this is all a big coincidence and the result of 10,000 year warming cycle.

This post has been edited by barmar: 2015-May-20, 12:30
Reason for edit: edited out derogatory comment

[Gerben42]

I just got a huge return on my utilities bill since we had the warmest winter in recorded history - this kinda explains why people are not worried too much about climate change...

[Daniel1960]

hrothgar, on 2015-May-19, 17:17, said:

For Christ's sake...

You've spent years claiming that the the Ice Pack at the North Pole is GROWING
You've spent a decade explaining how there is more and more ice at the South Pole.

And now, when new evidence conclusively demonstrates that one of the big ice sheets on the planet is collapsing, you spin on a dime, and claim that this is all a big coincidence and the result of 10,000 year warming cycle.

First off, this is not a big ice sheet. It is rather small, compared to others. That said, it is likely to collapse in the near future. However, overall the ice around Antarctica has been expanding. Selecting one portion of the total ice pack, while ignoring the reminder, is poor science.

Conversely, anyone suggesting that the ice pack around the north pole is growing, is guilty of the same selectivity. Yes, the ice has grow since 2012, but the overal trend has been downward. Should current rates continue, scientists have predicted an ice-free Arctic (i.e less than 1 million square km in the summer) by 2060. This is probably a worst case scenario, as much of the ice that has already retreatd has been the most vulnerable, and the remaining sea ice is more tightly grounded to the land-based glaciers. Also, the trends are based on starting from the largest expanse of sea ice, following the cooling decades of the 60s and 70s. Still, it is currently in retreat.

The bipolar action of our two major ice packs have confounded scientists for years, and we are no closer to an answer now, than we were then.

[Al_U_Card]

Gerben42, on 2015-May-20, 04:24, said:

I just got a huge return on my utilities bill since we had the warmest winter in recorded history - this kinda explains why people are not worried too much about climate change...

And we just had the coldest month of February and the coldest Jan-Mar since 1934! Since the summer of 1934 was also the HOTTEST on record, we are looking forward to some heat. If you are in Germany, all that greening of your grid has been raising rates substantially, as I understand. Less nuclear, more wind and higher rates. All about EU commitments I gather.