[Free]

Both Vulnerable, what does 5NT mean in the following auction:
3♠ - (4♥) - 5NT?

[Lurpoa]

GS try.
Cannit think about anything else.
Curious with what others come up with ...

[Fluffy]

Grand Slam Force for me, but I don't play pick a slam

[pooltuna]

Fluffy, on 2011-January-27, 08:43, said:

Grand Slam Force for me, but I don't play pick a slam

move over I guess we will find out in a hurry if this is a two seat bicycle or a band wagon.

[paulg]

Grand Slam Force. Pick a slam can normally do 'pick a minor 4NT' first (though this is not risk free).

[mtvesuvius]

My meta-rule is that all jumps to 5N are Pick-A-Slam. Considering 4N would be RKC here, I think this is a 20(56) type Slam forcing hand.

[Lurpoa]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-January-27, 10:34, said:

My meta-rule is that all jumps to 5N are Pick-A-Slam. Considering 4N would be RKC here, I think this is a 20(56) type Slam forcing hand.

Yes, I like that.
... But is is your rule... How many partners will find that ???

[mtvesuvius]

I think it's a fairly common treatment for 5N to "always" be pick-a-slam, and I generally discuss this in any of my serious partnerships. It may not be the best treatment always, however it will simplify many auctions, and removes the risk of a misunderstanding, which at the slam level can be very costly.

Here I think GSF is certainly more practical, but based on the rule I like to have established, 5N should be pick-a-slam.

[MrAce]

I think this one is something like good ole Josephine, asking for ♠ honors, a hand that can not learn by rkcb; asking to bid 7 with 2 of 3 TH.

Qxx Axx AKQxxxx void

Qx void AKxx AKxxxxx

I am sure there are pairs who play 5♥ here as voidwood, if voidwood is in your list of course.( for hand 2)

Edit: By the way i voted in wrong option i guess, i think what i explained qualifies for GS try.

[MrAce]

paulg, on 2011-January-27, 09:34, said:

Grand Slam Force. Pick a slam can normally do 'pick a minor 4NT' first (though this is not risk free).

I dont think Adam plays this 4NT showing minors, after pd opened 3♠. Maybe he does, but at least i don't.

[Phil]

MrAce, on 2011-January-27, 12:58, said:

I think this one is something like good ole Josephine, asking for ♠ honors, a hand that can not learn by rkcb; asking to bid 7 with 2 of 3 TH.

Qxx Axx AKQxxxx void

Qx void AKxx AKxxxxx

I am sure there are pairs who play 5♥ here as voidwood, if voidwood is in your list of course.( for hand 2)

Edit: By the way i voted in wrong option i guess, i think what i explained qualifies for GS try.

I would gamble that my partner does not have the aces that match my void and keep it simple with 4N with these examples.

[Trinidad]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-January-27, 10:34, said:

My meta-rule is that all jumps to 5N are Pick-A-Slam. Considering 4N would be RKC here, I think this is a 20(56) type Slam forcing hand.

Lurpoa, on 2011-January-27, 11:59, said:

Yes, I like that.
... But is is your rule... How many partners will find that ???

I do, and so does my partner (which isn't mtvesuvius ). I actually thought that this was quite standard and I am surprised by the amount of GST votes. My meta rule is: Game before slam, small slam before grand slam. So if the opps took our bidding room, I will be happy to get to the right small slam.

Rik

[MrAce]

Trinidad, on 2011-January-27, 13:07, said:

.... I actually thought that this was quite standard and I am surprised by the amount of GST votes. My meta rule is: Game before slam, small slam before grand slam. So if the opps took our bidding room, I will be happy to get to the right small slam.

Rik

I have to disagree about it being std, in fact u made me question my knowledge since i was away from bridge for a while and made my own poll. Did not recieve 1 single choice of slams answer from any one that i asked.(expert players) Answers were mostly Josephine. (of course that doesnt mean what u play it for is wrong)

I like your meta rule, however you underestimated something important i believe. When pd opens 3♠ and u hold strong hands, and when rho bids 4♥ i believe the chances of having hands suitable for ♠ grandslam/slam decision is more than chances of making a minor slam that is reached by pd's choice from xx and x or xx and xx. I maybe wrong though, thats just my guess with what i have seen over the years at the table, did not run any simulation or similar scientific test.

[mtvesuvius]

I agree, and have no doubt that playing it as GSF is better, however disobeying a meta-rule isn't something good to get into the habit of doing

[Fluffy]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-January-27, 12:03, said:

I think it's a fairly common treatment for 5N to "always" be pick-a-slam, and I generally discuss this in any of my serious partnerships. It may not be the best treatment always, however it will simplify many auctions, and removes the risk of a misunderstanding, which at the slam level can be very costly.

Here I think GSF is certainly more practical, but based on the rule I like to have established, 5N should be pick-a-slam.

The hand I had in mind for the grand slam force also was a 2065 lol

[Trinidad]

MrAce, on 2011-January-27, 13:41, said:

I have to disagree about it being std, in fact u made me question my knowledge since i was away from bridge for a while and made my own poll. Did not recieve 1 single choice of slams answer from any one that i asked.(expert players) Answers were mostly Josephine. (of course that doesnt mean what u play it for is wrong)

I like your meta rule, however you underestimated something important i believe. When pd opens 3♠ and u hold strong hands, and when rho bids 4♥ i believe the chances of having hands suitable for ♠ grandslam/slam decision is more than chances of making a minor slam that is reached by pd's choice from xx and x or xx and xx. I maybe wrong though, thats just my guess with what i have seen over the years at the table, did not run any simulation or similar scientific test.

I have meta rules, and I have exceptions to meta rules. The point is that with my partners I will have discussed our meta rules, as well as the exceptions. Is everyone here suggesting that they have discussed the sequence 3♠-(4♥)-5NT with their partner? Or is everyone suggesting that they hope their partner will be able to work out what 5NT means from the simple fact that Josephine (or any general GST) may be more useful here?

But all right, let's say that 5NT is a GST. How is partner supposed to view his hand to bid the grand? Does he need 2 of the top 3 honors (as in Josephine)? He just made a vulnerable preempt! You want to reserve a bid for the case where he opened 3♠ on ABTxxxx (about the only holding where he doesn't have 2 of the top 3 in my book)?

If 5NT would be a GST, I would find it more useful for the 5NT bid to ask for a heart void, (or for specific first round controls since you have room for that). If I would be in a partnership where we would have to figure out based on "common sense" what a bid would mean, I would bid 6♠ without a first round heart control and 7♠ with a first round heart control. But I am happy that my partners like to play defined systems and stick to them to make sure that we are on a common wavelength, rather than on two different wavelengths that each individually are better than the common one, but combined lead to disaster.

Rik

[awm]

I don't play "Grand Slam Force" -- I think it's a very dated treatment in this day of keycard blackwood and Italian-style cuebidding.

Here I would bid 4NT (RKC ♠) or 5♥ (slam try in spades, not suitable for RKC) or 5♠ (looking for heart control) if I wanted to try for a spade slam or grand slam. So there's no need to use 5NT to look for grand slam in spades. Instead, it should be offering other places to play at the six level in case the 3♠ bid wasn't based on a great suit. While I don't go quite so far as vesuvius, I think 5NT should usually be "pick-a-slam" unless that's somehow not a logical interpretation.

[MrAce]

Trinidad, on 2011-January-27, 17:58, said:

I have meta rules, and I have exceptions to meta rules. The point is that with my partners I will have discussed our meta rules, as well as the exceptions. Is everyone here suggesting that they have discussed the sequence 3♠-(4♥)-5NT with their partner? Or is everyone suggesting that they hope their partner will be able to work out what 5NT means from the simple fact that Josephine (or any general GST) may be more useful here?

But all right, let's say that 5NT is a GST. How is partner supposed to view his hand to bid the grand? Does he need 2 of the top 3 honors (as in Josephine)? He just made a vulnerable preempt! You want to reserve a bid for the case where he opened 3♠ on ABTxxxx (about the only holding where he doesn't have 2 of the top 3 in my book)?

If 5NT would be a GST, I would find it more useful for the 5NT bid to ask for a heart void, (or for specific first round controls since you have room for that). If I would be in a partnership where we would have to figure out based on "common sense" what a bid would mean, I would bid 6♠ without a first round heart control and 7♠ with a first round heart control. But I am happy that my partners like to play defined systems and stick to them to make sure that we are on a common wavelength, rather than on two different wavelengths that each individually are better than the common one, but combined lead to disaster.

Rik

Thinking a vulnerable preempt, especially when they are vulnerable too, should have 2 of 3 TH is way too foreign style to me. I dont even call them preempt anymore for god's sake, they are PICTURE BIDS Some of us however still use preempts and try not to be predictable for not fading away the main purpose of those bids. And yes, we go minus 1100 now and then and u guys dont, i know.

I am trying to construct hands, which may (if ever) come where i wanna force my partner to pick a minor suit and play the right slam in one bid. That must be hell of a hand. But i still believe, especially opening VERY agressive preempts as well as sound too but unpredictable , it is much better to ask the trump suit.

x A AKQxxx AKQxx thats more generous hand than god will ever give to u, and u still won't be sure if pd prefered from xx and xx or xx and x or not. If you are sparing a bid for a VERY UNLIKELY hand, i expect you to be at least accurate when/if it ever comes. Someone with no agreements will probably bid and make 6 ♦, while u may go down after waiting couple centuries for that hand to come. It just doesnt sound right to me. At least Josephine in the hands i can use, will be % 100 accurate and can be made on something as low as

QTx Axx void AKxxxxx


What you really ignore is the 4♥ bid. People usually do not preempt over preempt, it is extremely unlikely to hold a hand that has both minors covered in this auction. If it was 1♠-4♥-5NT then yes but in this auction you are sparing a bid for something that almost will never come, and even if it does, you still will have questions marks in your head.

You say u agreed with your pd and discussed this auction. People that i asked, are very well aware of 5NT COS bids, as well as people here who also voted for GST. Trust me you are not the only one who plays 5NT as COS.

And yes, you can play 5NT asking ♥ void if you want to, which i never thought untill u suggested, but i liked it to be honest, i am considering to use it, thank you. Of course if u can explain me the details, like what kinda hands do we do it with, assuming xxx(x) ♥ holding, then what will pd bid with doubleton ? No need, 5♠ covers it pretty much and pd bids 6 with ♥ control, and cues 6♥ with a void or Ace.

[Lurpoa]

Trinidad, on 2011-January-27, 13:07, said:

I do, and so does my partner (which isn't mtvesuvius ). I actually thought that this was quite standard and I am surprised by the amount of GST votes. My meta rule is: Game before slam, small slam before grand slam. So if the opps took our bidding room, I will be happy to get to the right small slam.

Rik

Yes, I like that....
Also mtvesuvius : It may not be the best treatment always, however it will simplify many auctions, and removes the risk of a misunderstanding, which at the slam level can be very costly.

[whereagles]

If pard were a passed hand, this would be a suggestion to save in 7♠, in case opps bid the grand.

Since he is not, I don't have a clue what this might mean and I don't have any meta-rules here. I would probably end up assuming this is some sort of spade raise.