[Hanoi5]

2♣ opening bids are hard to handle. Little space, not common, etc it all ends in difficult situations to handle. Add some disruption by the opponents and then we have:

♠AKJ
♥AKJT9xx
♦
♣AQJ

2♣-Pass-2♦-3♦
???

Let's say you just bid 3♥, what would 4♣ by partner be? What about 3NT? What would you bid over each?

[Quantumcat]

If double is penalty and pass is forcing takeout (is this standard?), I'll pass and bid hearts over partner's balanced, nothing-to-say double.

If he bids 3♠ or 4♣ (which should show OK suits, not 5-small or he should double):

For spades I want partner to have the either the ♣K or ♥Q for 6, or else after a club lead and losing finesse and ♣A knocked out it will be hard to draw trumps and ruff out the ♥Q and be back in dummy at the right time. I don't think I can find out so I'd just bid 6♠ hoping he has one of those cards (plus the ♠Q which he should have for his 3♠ bid).

For clubs, partner should have the ♣K for his bid, if he has the ♥Q as well 13 tricks look pretty good, but might be hard to find out, so I'd just bid 6♣.

[Flameous]

And what do you suppose partner does with a hand like xxxxx x xx xxxxx? I'm pretty sure he is bidding 3♠ rather than doubling. Of course this is extreme, but assuming partner holds all the critical cards for his bids in this sequence seems to be expecting quite a lot.

[Yu18772]

I play here pass is forcing, x penalty and suit is self sufficient setting trump (4♦ is very strong 2-suiter, but we prefer not to open 2 suited hands with 2♣, so this really shows a monster hand).
Essentially if opener bids 3♥ we are playing the same as if the uninterrupted auction went 2♣-2♦-3♥.
A suit by responder after my pass does not show extra values or good suit, but does show at least 5 cards (otherwise dbl), 3NT would show at least AQx or KJTx.

[Free]

I also play pass as forcing, Dbl as penalty, and a suit as setting trumps. I also play 2♣-2♦ as GF, and 2♣-2♥ as negative. This makes things more clear imo. Here I can easily bid 3♥ and know partner won't pass this out. Whatever he does now is in function of ♥. Yes, partner can have ♠Qxxxxx and ♥x, but it's not like we can find that out easily I'm afraid. The situation is rare enough that I don't think we need perfect agreements, decent agreements are good enough here imo.

[the hog]

Quantumcat, on 2011-May-03, 20:37, said:

For clubs, partner should have the ♣K for his bid, if he has the ♥Q as well 13 tricks look pretty good, but might be hard to find out, so I'd just bid 6♣.

Why? Does your partner have to pass with:
xxx
void
xxx
xxxxxxx

[whereagles]

Be practical. You have a heart 1-suiter, so bid either 4, 5 or 6♥, depending on your mood.

[Lurpoa]

Hanoi5, on 2011-May-03, 20:25, said:

2♣ opening bids are hard to handle. Little space, not common, etc it all ends in difficult situations to handle. Add some disruption by the opponents and then we have:

♠AKJ
♥AKJT9xx
♦
♣AQJ

2♣-Pass-2♦-3♦
???

Let's say you just bid 3♥, what would 4♣ by partner be? What about 3NT? What would you bid over each?

3NT = to play, good ♦ stoppers. (don't forget that 2♦ can be a relais bid (whatever system you are playing, unless other agreements).
4♣ = good 5card ♣, forcing

[Quantumcat]

the hog, on 2011-May-04, 03:54, said:

Why? Does your partner have to pass with:
xxx
void
xxx
xxxxxxx

Do you mean he might be thinking about raising to 7♣? If the heart void was all he needed for seven, he would have started cue-bidding, not leapt to slam.

Flameous, on 2011-May-04, 01:27, said:

And what do you suppose partner does with a hand like xxxxx x xx xxxxx? I'm pretty sure he is bidding 3♠ rather than doubling. Of course this is extreme, but assuming partner holds all the critical cards for his bids in this sequence seems to be expecting quite a lot.

He needs to double. Opener's pass is takeout, after the double opener will begin bidding suits he can play in, and so can responder. it might go X 3♥, 3♠ 4♥, then either pass or 4♠ depending on if you think your partner has to have at least 3 for his pass.

Bidding a suit after the pass shows a suit that can be trumps without a huge amount of help from partner (e.g. Kxx should do as trump support). If you don't agree this, then you get into a nasty muddle on hands like this one.

[the hog]

Quantumcat, on 2011-May-04, 21:02, said:

Do you mean he might be thinking about raising to 7♣? If the heart void was all he needed for seven, he would have started cue-bidding, not leapt to slam.



He needs to double. Opener's pass is takeout, after the double opener will begin bidding suits he can play in, and so can responder. it might go X 3♥, 3♠ 4♥, then either pass or 4♠ depending on if you think your partner has to have at least 3 for his pass.

Bidding a suit after the pass shows a suit that can be trumps without a huge amount of help from partner (e.g. Kxx should do as trump support). If you don't agree this, then you get into a nasty muddle on hands like this one.

What on earth are you talking about?
The op asked:

2♣-Pass-2♦-3♦
???

Let's say you just bid 3♥, what would 4♣ by partner be?
Who leapt to slam?

[Fluffy]

I think 4♣ is natural and I have an obvious GSF bid

[TWO4BRIDGE]

the hog, on 2011-May-05, 04:03, said:

What on earth are you talking about?
The op asked:

2♣-Pass-2♦-3♦
???

Ron.... Quantumcat is taking about the alternative course of action of PASS! ( for T/O ) by Opener... and then DBL by Responder:

2♣ - ( p ) - 2♦! - ( 3♦ )
p ! - ( p ) - X - ( p )
??

[Quantumcat]

the hog, on 2011-May-05, 04:03, said:

Responder is not allowed to pass after opener's pass. That's what the word forcing in the phrase forcing takeout is referring to.

I thought you were talking about the auction

2♣ (P) 2♦ (3♦)
P (P) 4♣ (P)
6♣ (P) ?

[aguahombre]

All that stuff about forcing takeout of 3D makes perfect sense. but when I have opened a hand worth ten tricks for hearts, a forcing pass seems quite gross. Let's go with answering the OP's questions based on a 3H rebid by the 2C opener. Am waiting to hear the answers to that.

[Quantumcat]

aguahombre, on 2011-May-05, 23:22, said:

All that stuff about forcing takeout of 3D makes perfect sense. but when I have opened a hand worth ten tricks for hearts, a forcing pass seems quite gross. Let's go with answering the OP's questions based on a 3H rebid by the 2C opener. Am waiting to hear the answers to that.

A 3♥ bid instead of pass should say I am not capable of playing in any trump suit except hearts.

This is why you have a problem after the rebid by responder: you ARE actually capable of playing in other trump suits!

Since the 3♥ bid should mean you aren't capable of playing in a different trump suit, a 4♣ bid by responder should be a cue, and possibly 3NT would be "I wish you had had a double cause I wanted to penalise!"

If you do decide that you are only worth playing in hearts (very reasonable) then after a 4♣ cue, you would be quite unlucky to not make 7, so I would probably be practical and just bid it (it may not make if he has 3+ spades and exactly 3 clubs).

[gnasher]

I don't think it's very sensible to play that a new suit by opener sets trumps. If you're forced to pass on all hands that don't have self-supporting trumps, how will you cope if the next hand raises to 5♦?

[Quantumcat]

gnasher, on 2011-May-07, 01:38, said:

I don't think it's very sensible to play that a new suit by opener sets trumps. If you're forced to pass on all hands that don't have self-supporting trumps, how will you cope if the next hand raises to 5♦?

It will be much easier for responder to make a double instead of playing the hand if he knows partner doesn't have a massive one-suiter, and thus has some defense.

e.g. you'd rather partner has AKQT5/KQJ/5/KQ87 to defend with than AKQT97654/8/-/KQ5.

Also, partner is better placed to know whether slam is on or not, if opener has passed rather than bid.

e.g. partner holds 832/A653/JT87/63. On the first hand you only have 11 tricks, and a double will net you somewhere between 1400 and 2000. On the second slam is as close to 100% as is practical, but you will probably only get 300 or 500 out of a double.

The two auctions:

2♣ (p) 2♦ (3♦)
p (5♦) X = 1700.


2♣ (p) 2♦ (3♦)
3♠ (5♦) 5♥ (p)
6♠ = 1430.

[cherdano]

Quantumcat, on 2011-May-08, 17:25, said:

It will be much easier for responder to make a double instead of playing the hand if he knows partner doesn't have a massive one-suiter, and thus has some defense.

e.g. you'd rather partner has AKQT5/KQJ/5/KQ87 to defend with than AKQT97654/8/-/KQ5.

Also, partner is better placed to know whether slam is on or not, if opener has passed rather than bid.

e.g. partner holds 832/A653/JT87/63. On the first hand you only have 11 tricks, and a double will net you somewhere between 1400 and 2000. On the second slam is as close to 100% as is practical, but you will probably only get 300 or 500 out of a double.

The two auctions:

2♣ (p) 2♦ (3♦)
p (5♦) X = 1700.


2♣ (p) 2♦ (3♦)
3♠ (5♦) 5♥ (p)
6♠ = 1430.

I don't think you understood what Andy meant. With takeout shape, it's fine to pass. But when you have a shapely one-suiter or two-suiter, you have to start bidding your suits - even if they aren't good enough to set trumps.

[Quantumcat]

cherdano, on 2011-May-08, 19:55, said:

I don't think you understood what Andy meant. With takeout shape, it's fine to pass. But when you have a shapely one-suiter or two-suiter, you have to start bidding your suits - even if they aren't good enough to set trumps.

Ok I understand now. That makes sense. The bid doesn't have to be a self-supporting suit, it is just a hand where you don't need your partner's opinion on the trump suit.

If you pass with a 2-suiter, you can still show it later: when 5♦ comes back to you (assuming responder did not double) you can still bid 5♥, 5♠ or 5NT to show a 2-suiter, since a balanced/takeout shape would double (expecting to be passed out most of the time) and a single suiter would have bid the first time.

The more I think about it the better it seems to give up on a slam in a black suit and pretend you have hearts and only hearts. If 5♦ came back to you and partner hadn't doubled, you would be stuck for a bid (5♥ should have two suits, and defending doesn't seem very appealing).

[gnasher]

You seem to be saying that your methods should be designed solely to maximise the chance of getting to the right slam. I don't really understand that approach - even after a 2♣ opening, it's far more likely to be a game hand than a slam hand.

In your preferred style, how would these two pairs of hands be bid, with the opponents overcalling 3♦ and then raising to 5♦?

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(I know that the first one is a slam hand, but I'm not suggesting that we should be able to bid it.)