[JLOGIC]

kenrexford, on 2011-May-28, 09:59, said:

I agree with your post, but I thought this was intriguing. The fact that many experts still seem to not agree on principles for cuebidding that avert any reasonable mergin of error and where interpretation is not difficult disappoints me immensely.

Maybe they should read your book . Seriously though Ken, how often do you watch vugraph or read the world championship book or whatever and see pairs just cuebid to grand? Other than those italians that don't play keycard (I think they play something called turbo though?) it seems extremely rare to me.

Quote

The cirticism is (or should be) of the misuse of Keycard, rather than the convention itself. If you cue-bid first- and second-round controls indiscriminately, Keycard is often essential just to establish that you have sufficient key cards.

What your expert pairs should be doing is delicately cue-bidding to establish that they have the wherewithal to make a slam, then indelicately bidding Keycard to confirm that the opponents don't have the wherewithal to beat it.

I totally agree with the 2nd part and think that is how most pairs bid now. As far as the first part, I guess I only agree with the "should be." In practice in many post mortem discussions in online message forums, the "solutions" to a hand often involve cuebidding all the way to slam or grand, and it is better for this or that reason. I mean honestly when you can have an auction start 1S 2N 3C(short) 3D, I cannot imagine an auction where I need to cuebid to a slam or grand, we are already low enough that we can cuebid to make sure we have enough values and are not off an AK for slam, and then bid keycard. Of course preliminary cuebidding auctions also help for later auctions in keycard.

I am sure you could equally construct some auction where you cuebid all the way and both sides should know whats going on exactly, but in practice it never seems to work out that way.

I do not think it's a bad thing that slam bidding often works as you described in the 2nd paragraph I quoted (cuebid to make sure you have enough values and also every suit controlled, and then bid keycard to confirm you're not off 2 keycards or 1 plus the trump queen, etc).

Quote

Is this a function of expert pairs being too preoccupied with other things to make this a priority?

Or is it because there just isn't a consensus of what a high level cue bid shows or denies?

As gnasher indicated, often when you have done some cuebidding already, you are not sure if your partner has the ace, king, or stiff or void (some auctions you can eliminate the latter 2, but you still don't know about the former 2). Maybe one of your cuebids was last train just about values, so you're not sure if that's even a control. You have to sort all of that out, while still finding out if they have first and second round control, or whatever. On top of that, someone needs to figure out the trump quality situation. On top of that, maybe one partner will have more information than the other based on how the auction times out, but it's the other guy who needs the info to bid the grand, because he's sitting on extra tricks like KQJx that his partner doesn't know about.

Keycard eliminates all of that. By 4N, 5N, both partners have the same information about the other person's keycards. There is no doubt about trump quality or whether partners previous cuebid was the ace or the king. After that, bidding grands is pretty easy. For grand slam bidding it's tough to beat keycard, and for small slam bidding in most auctions you know whether you have enough values for slam before bidding keycard, and in some preempted auctions you may just choose to gamble, or you may choose to cuebid in that situation.

I mean, if it ain't broke don't fix it?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

JLOGIC, on 2011-May-27, 13:49, said:

People rip on keycard a ton but it is a very powerful convention, especially for bidding grands. I never seem to see expert pairs cuebidding their way delicately to grands, this leaves a huge margin of error and interpretation for everything.

Agree.

Some, and I think avery few, will only cuebid past 4NT ( RKC ) when holding at least the A and K of trumps, which of couse greatly curtails 5-level cuebidding.

[gnasher]

han, on 2011-May-28, 12:59, said:

What do you think 5NT is in a cuebidding auction? We play it as "no further cuebids but still interested in 7", which means more than minimal strength in the trump suit. If I have bid the trump suit and partner has supported, then my 5NT says I have 2+ top honors there, and partner's 5NT shows he has 1+ top honor there.

Well, that's in theory. In practice we always bid blackwood.

Sometimes 5NT is pick-a-slam. I think that has contributed to the tendency to choose Keycard over five-level cue-bidding.

In auctions where 5NT is available for grand-slam investigation, I like to play it as RKCB. That lets us conduct a delicate cue-bidding sequence without risking the indignity of having them cash an ace against seven.

[han]

gnasher, on 2011-May-28, 16:05, said:

Sometimes 5NT is pick-a-slam. I think that has contributed to the tendency to choose Keycard over five-level cue-bidding.

I don't think so. I think that there are few partnerships that establish a fit (for example with 1S - 2NT), then cuebids all the way to 5NT and then bids 5NT to discuss which suit to play. I think that 5NT pick a slam is a great convention, but I don't think it has anything to do with the popularity of RKC.

[gnasher]

I wasn't talking specifically about sequences starting 1M-2NT, but about slam sequences in general - especially 2/1 sequences where you've agreed a major but there's a minor that might be playable.

But I don't really know if 5NT is pick-a-slam in those sequences either - beause they always bid Keycard, we never get to find out what 5NT would have meant .

[kenrexford]

I think I misunderstood you, Justin. I thought you meant that most expert pairs will leap to 4NT sooner than I think they should, getting the heck away from confused cuebidding as soon as they can. I did not mean to suggest that cuebidding alone, without RKCB, is ideal (although on rare occasions this sometimes works).

In reviewing expert sequences, some seem to do exactly what I like -- cuebid as far as it can be done, only committing to 4NT when you have run out of space or where nothing more needs known that RKCB will not state. Some, however, still seem to make strange leaps to 4NT without sufficient info, scratching their head after the answer, or even worse will make what seem like undisciplined "I feel like showing this today" cuebids.

I have to admit that I also start to sweat when a partner opts against RKCB and tosses out some five-level side suit call, especially if I suspect that they have forgotten some principle. As an example, I hate the "Normally Exclusion" call when I have already denied a control in that suit. Now, I know that the call means something else (whatever the partnership understanding is), but I always suspect (often correctly) that it is Practice Exclusion anyway.

[Zelandakh]

MrAce, on 2011-May-27, 05:05, said:

At the other table, south foresees the problem that if he asks, even when everything is there, he wont be sure of the 3rd round cover cards. He also knows pd is lack of ♥ control,

MrAce, on 2011-May-27, 14:00, said:

I am told 6♥ here asks ♥K, since 6♦ did not refuse ♥K. Which i thought it did because with both red Kings i wld think N should bid 7 after 5 NT.

This seems a little strange. How can 6H be asking for the HK when by your own definition North has already denied a heart control. Like Justin I thought 6H was obvious after 6D and as, unlike him, I am not an expert I am seriously surprised that this expert South did not find it.

[1eyedjack]

I think as the auction went, North is very close to bidding 7D over 5N, offering a choice. If South has 4 Diamonds instead of 4 Hearts, he may not need the Heart King. If South has only 3 diamonds he will convert, in that case requiring South to have the Heart King or a successful finesse of Heart Queen (I think it rather unlikely that he has neither). The single-dummy a proiri odds of the grand may be a bit below requirements once the dummy hits and South has a disappointing hand, but at the time of bidding it the odds must surely be favourable.