[flytoox]

Vul.: NS
Dealer: North

---

BID GOES

W N E S
-- 1S P 2N*
4N* P 5D ?

2N=JACOBY
4N=MINORS

Does pd's pass imply anything?

Thanks.

Hongjun

[whereagles]

Pard's pass seems to show willing to go to the 5-level. Which isn't surprising given our holdings in the minor suits.

My hand sucks for offense, so I double 5D and hope pard passes.

[EricK]

Partner's pass is forcing. Therefore he doesn't have significant extra offence or defence.

I double now as I have extra defense (I have defensive holdings in the 3 outside suits and a neutral holding in ♠).

Eric

[ochinko]

Partner's pass is not forcing to me . It means he has described his hand, and has nothing more to add. He could have as little as KQJ10x AJ10 xx Jxx even if we are vulnerable.

I don't see a big enough chance to make 5Sp. I am not willing to defend a contract on red that could go down but not necessarily. I pray that opps go down but see little value in doubling.

So I pass.

[hrothgar]

Clear forcing pass.

Easy double

[inquiry]

Well, in a way, you might consider your partner's pass as forcing. But we all know this in not the typical forcing pass situation. IF you pass the auction will not be over, and your partner knew when he passed 4NT he was going to get another bid. And he knows you knew, and so do the oppoents, etc.

So the real question you have to ask yourself is, would your pass of 5D be a forcing pass. Ah, there is the rub. You said 2NT was jacoby, and hence, game force. So you have shown more than half the deck and they are at the five level (over surely you would have bid 4S if they had left you alone).

So in this situaion, would a pass by you even be forcing? If you are vulnerable, I would say yes. If this is matchpoints, I would say yes. Well you are vulnerable, so I take a pass here by me as forcing.

Like everyone else, I agree this hand is not one I want to encourage my partner to take another call. I do have an extra spade, but overall, my hand shape, and location of values suggest defend. The diamond jack maybe golden on defense if partner has a singleton diamnod K or Q, but is useless for offense.

So for me, double here is standout. Sure they may make if one is void in clubs, the other in spades, and the heart queen is poorly placed. It happens. Worse will be if you pass and your partner then bids 5S when you are setting 5Dx or worse yet, your pass encourages him to bid 6S when 5S was makign and he would have bid that if you had doubled.

Which brings us back to a question no one has addressed. IF partner would do something precipitious over our double, why didn't he take direct action over 4NT. It seems to me that he had a couple of choices. He could have doubled 4NT, he could have cue-bid some suit at the five level, he could have bid 5 spades.

I take his double of 4NT sort as a warning to you not to bid on, just as now, your double of 5D will be a warning to him. So he has more of an offensive hand, than defensive. The question is, the more offensive his hand, would you think he would pass first then cue-bid, or wait for you to double and then cue-bid? I use principle of fast arrival in these situations, so to delay and then cue-bid is stronger than to cue-bid immediately.... but this could be complicated by the fact that if he wantd to cue-bid clubs, he would not be able too if they bid 5D. Anyway, that is academic, I am doubling. If partner pulls, I will worry about what to do.

BTW, since I am playing partner for an offensive hand, there are some defensive leaning hands I would pass with (this is not one fo them). He has already said he has an offensive hand, so with those, I would pass to see if it was really great offensively (he will bid), or if it was just slighty more offensive than defensive where he will double.

Ben

[Flame]

This is not simple forcing pass bid, yes pass over 4nt is forcing but since 4nt itself was forcing im not sure what this pass shows. Anyway everyone here is talking about how deffensive the hand is, i think double is right , but its very close to forcing pass by us, without the J of diamond i would pass.

[EricK]

Ben & Flame,

I think North's pass has to show something in this sequence, despite the forcing Nature of West's 4NT bid

Suppose East decides that 4NT down 10 is a good save against your vulnerable game? Now South has to make a decision about what to do. It is important that North has given him as much information as possible.

Eric

[han]

Clearly the pass over 4NT was forcing, in the sense that partner can never pass. However, this is not a sequence where you would use pass and pull to show interest in more, you'd just make a cuebid.

Double would show great interest in defending against some 5m, pass denies this.

A pass by us would clearly be forcing.

I double and lead a trump.

[inquiry]

EricK, on Sep 23 2004, 01:24 PM, said:

Ben & Flame,

I think North's pass has to show something in this sequence, despite the forcing Nature of West's 4NT bid

Suppose East decides that 4NT down 10 is a good save against your vulnerable game? Now South has to make a decision about what to do. It is important that North has given him as much information as possible.

Eric

Oh, I agree the pass over 4NT conveys information. Here is what I would like to think. I would like to think that over 4NT my partner looked at his hand and developed a plan to convey the best discription of his holding. If he had a hand where I coulld participate in the decision process.

With that caveat, the pass did convey information. My partner is not worried that I might unilaterally bid 5S. IF he was, he would have doubled. Partner may have a plan, such as it is. He could hold, for instance...

S-KQJxxx
H-AKx
D-xxx
C-A

With this hand, his plan would be simple, wait for them to bid 5C, maybe even with me doubling, then bid 5H. Here 5H has to be a slam try, and it denies a diamond control. I would also play this "delayed" 5H as stronger than an immediate 5H over 4NT. His pass also give ME a chance to cue-bid 5D over 5C to show an offensive hand of my own with a diamond control. This might be the only way to find a grand.

If partner, however was,

S-KQJxxx
H-Axxxx
D-x
C-x

I might expect an immediate 5H. This is a milder slam try than the delay one. If he had a true monster like this.. I would expect a jump bid in the splinter suit.

S-KQJTxx
H-AKJx
D-Axx
C-void

And what if parner had some junky opener? Something like:
S-KJxxx
H-AJxx
D-Kxx
C-Jx

I suspect he would double 4NT and pass my double of 5D. That is, if he was "WORRIED" about me bidding 5♠, he would have doubled 4NT. This we can all (I hope) agree on.

My comment about not being "the typical forcing pass situation" is that I will be able to pass without ending the auction. If RHO passes 4NT, I will still reach fo the red card I had been eying while waiting for my RHO to bid his minor, and play it.

Ben

[han]

I agree that partner may have more plans, but that is not important now. If partner was planning to pull our double then we will find out. For now, let's double and see.