[mikeh]

Fluffy, on 2011-September-13, 08:42, said:

IMO partner has denied a heart shortness failing to bid 4♥ with what I think must be at least 4 clubs. This makes grand slam a bad shot in general so be content with keycard + bid 6

The OP described 3N as promising heart shortness

[gwnn]

mikeh, on 2011-September-13, 09:17, said:

The OP described 3N as promising heart shortness

wrong thread?

[aguahombre]

Yeh, that was the thread on J2N after 1S, then a 3NT rebid. Nice catch, csaba.

[Phil]

Han is right. 4N does not commit us to NT. While it expresses our values and shape perfectly, I'd like another heart stopper.

With a non-minimum hand with 5♦ and 4♣, I expect 5N from pard. With 5-5, pard can bid 6♣.

[ggwhiz]

I like dbl in an attempt to determine pards shape but realize it may not work out.

If pard bids ♠ I can bid ♦ forcing followed by a cue and always retreat to notrump.

If pard has short ♥ and less than 4 ♠ or a notrump bid the rest of the auction will be smooth sailing. Otherwise I'll scramble and likely have to decide between ♦ and notrump possibly with a nasty guess but I would have to hear 2 "wrong" answers before it comes to that..

[mikeh]

gwnn, on 2011-September-13, 09:32, said:

wrong thread?

thanks for the help....we're now even for the day

[jillybean]

AKx, ATx, K9x, AJ94

1♦ (2♥) 3♣ (P)
4♣?

Partner actually held QJx, Q, AJTxxx, KT8. Would it be better to rebid diamonds rather than support clubs, it's
a tough hand.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2011-September-13, 11:00, said:

AKx, ATx, K9x, AJ94

1♦ (2♥) 3♣ (P)
4♣?

Partner actually held QJx, Q, AJTxxx, KT8. Would it be better to rebid diamonds rather than support clubs, it's
a tough hand.

To me, 3♦ is absolutely clear. I think 4♣ is a bad call.

[jillybean]

Ok, so the auction should have started like this... CORRECTED

---

Now a question for those who play kickback Since 4♦ starts a cue sequence, can you use 4♥ to show the control or must you
use 4N?

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2011-September-13, 12:53, said:

Ok, so the auction should have started like this...

---

Now a question for those who play kickback Since 4♦ starts a cue sequence, can you use 4♥ to show the control or must you
use 4N?

You've changed the hands again....now opener has 3=2=5=3 shape...was that intentional? I would bid 3♦ with the 3=2=5=3 example, and think it routine.

Btw, maybe a case can be made for a 3♥ call by responder over 3♦, with opener bidding a delayed 3N to suggest a positional holding such as this Qx.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2011-September-13, 14:21, said:

You've changed the hands again....now opener has 3=2=5=3 shape...was that intentional? I would bid 3♦ with the 3=2=5=3 example, and think it routine.

Btw, maybe a case can be made for a 3♥ call by responder over 3♦, with opener bidding a delayed 3N to suggest a positional holding such as this Qx.

Sorry, the hand was 3163

[han]

I agree that partner should rebid 3D instead of 4C.

I don't agree with Phil wrt 4NT. The single heart stopper is the least of my worries, we hold a prime 19-count! It is an interesting question whether 5C over 4NT should show a minimum, maybe it should. That doesn't mean we can't raise, but I'd expect partner to hold 5-5 in the minors and about an 11-count.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2011-September-13, 12:53, said:

Ok, so the auction should have started like this... CORRECTED

---

Now a question for those who play kickback Since 4♦ starts a cue sequence, can you use 4♥ to show the control or must you
use 4N?

4h is clearly kickback rkc in d and would be my choice now


4nt would show a h cuebid.
---


fwiw your 3c bid timed out the auction rather nicely I would have picked x or 4nt quantative not 3c.

I think all roads lead to Rome or 6d in this case.

[aguahombre]

mike777, on 2011-September-14, 17:43, said:

4h is clearly kickback rkc in d and would be my choice now

Perhaps not everyone's choice holding no first or second round spade control. I don't think North should be doing anything to take over Captaincy. Maybe 4N as a heart cue, if it doesn't guarantee first round control, but rather just control. Maybe 4N as a punt. Maybe 5D as having shown most everything he has.

Whatever it means, South will bid 6D and go on to the next hand.

[mike777]

aguahombre, on 2011-September-14, 18:18, said:

Perhaps not everyone's choice holding no first or second round spade control. I don't think North should be doing anything to take over Captaincy. Maybe 4N as a heart cue, if it doesn't guarantee first round control, but rather just control. Maybe 4N as a punt. Maybe 5D as having shown most everything he has.

Whatever it means, South will bid 6D and go on to the next hand.

Actually I strongly prefer to bid 4h rkc over 3d and be captain.

[aguahombre]

mike777, on 2011-September-14, 18:26, said:

Actually I strongly prefer to bid 4h rkc over 3d and be captain.

Yep, you could do that. I think Jilly was wondering how North should continue if South didn't do that. The only problem might be whether 4H is really kickback by South, who has not yet supported diamonds.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2011-September-14, 17:43, said:

4h is clearly kickback rkc in d and would be my choice now


4nt would show a h cuebid.
---


fwiw your 3c bid timed out the auction rather nicely I would have picked x or 4nt quantative not 3c.

I think all roads lead to Rome or 6d in this case.

Why is 4♥ clearly kickback? 4♦ is asking partner to cue, without slam interest we would bid a direct 5♦. Why would you launch into asking for keys when partner has invited you to cue? If the answer is `you wouldn`t`, then we can use 4♥ as a cue and allowing partner room to cue 4♠

fwiw, I am not responsible for any bids in this auction, it's an auction my partner had on Sunday when he won the teams event but I thought it was an interesting auction & lesson.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2011-September-14, 18:33, said:

Why is 4♥ clearly kickback? 4♦ is asking partner to cue, without slam interest we would bid a direct 5♦. Why would you launch into asking for keys when partner has invited you to cue? If the answer is `you wouldn`t`, then we can use 4♥ as a cue and allowing partner room to cue 4♠

4d agrees d and is a slam try. It does not does not demand or even strongly suggest to pard that cuebidding is better than rkc now. OTOH I think 4nt does say cuebid pard if you can.


If you play kickback then 4h must be rkc as it is the only way to ace ask here in d. Of course pard is free to cuebid if he has a void say in h. IN any case prefer to bid 4h over 3d and be captain.

---


JB I believe you are asking once you agree a suit can you ever bid the kickback ask, in this case 4h, d are trumps, as a cuebid. No you never can.

[Zelandakh]

If you play Minorwood then supporting a minor at the 4 level in a GF auction is RKCB - that would make 4D here asking and not demanding cues. In playing this you sometimes have to give up being able to make a simple slam try.

If you play Kickback then 4m+1 is asking (unless it can be natural) and 4NT replaces what the natural meaning would be. That would make 4H, both after 3D and 4D, RKCB for diamonds. In playing this style you sometimes end up with the wrong hand asking after a slam try, or you have to cue and lose the ability to keycard.

A third method, best used when it is clear which hand should be doing the asking, is for 4m from that player to be a slam try, but for the responses to be 4m+1 when declining the slam try and keycard responses from 4m+2. That would make 4D a slam try with responses: 4H = decline; 4S = accept, 1 or 4; 4N = accept, 0 or 3; 5C = accept 2 or 5 -DQ; 5D = accept, 2 or 5 +DQ. You can also combine this last scheme with Kickback by the "asking hand". Finally, if 4m+1 would have been Kickback then you do not need a keycard-asking bid after the 4m+1 decline. Instead it is probably best to use the remaining bids as control-asks. In this auction, if 4H was bid after 4D, then 4S would ask for a spade control, 4N for a heart control, and 5C for a club control. Of course, you need some good agreements for when this scheme will be on to avoid a disaster...

[aguahombre]

Zelandakh, on 2011-September-17, 09:57, said:

A third method, best used when it is clear which hand should be doing the asking, is for 4m from that player to be a slam try, but for the responses to be 4m+1 when declining the slam try and keycard responses from 4m+2. That would make 4D a slam try with responses: 4H = decline; 4S = accept, 1 or 4; 4N = accept, 0 or 3; 5C = accept 2 or 5 -DQ; 5D = accept, 2 or 5 +DQ. You can also combine this last scheme with Kickback by the "asking hand". Finally, if 4m+1 would have been Kickback then you do not need a keycard-asking bid after the 4m+1 decline. Instead it is probably best to use the remaining bids as control-asks. In this auction, if 4H was bid after 4D, then 4S would ask for a spade control, 4N for a heart control, and 5C for a club control. Of course, you need some good agreements for when this scheme will be on to avoid a disaster...

Very interesting. However, it might not be "clear" which hand should be doing the asking at that point. You could keep the same Eitherwood scheme you presented, but leave out 4m+1 kickback and reserve that for a cue. Then, after the 4H decline of the either/or 4D, 4S would demand an actual RKC reply.