[mgoetze]

---

Your bid? If you think form of scoring matters, please elaborate. Would your bid change if partner had 15-17?

[Flameous]

Did I have serious/non serious 3NT avail? Is partner forced to cue or can he just deem his hand unsuitable?

If partner doesn't indeed have red ctrls, it means he has something along lines of Kxx QJ(x) QJx(x) KQx(x), that's the worst 14 count I can think of.

I'll go with RKC and if I find ♠KQ, I'll go to 6, I think it often requires a finesse and not too bad breaks, but it could also be cold.

[mgoetze]

 Flameous, on 2011-September-17, 06:22, said:

Did I have serious/non serious 3NT avail?

In general we play frivolous 3NT (for spades). But do you think it should apply on this auction?

Quote

Is partner forced to cue or can he just deem his hand unsuitable?

I don't know, what do you think?

[mgoetze]

 Flameous, on 2011-September-17, 06:22, said:

If partner doesn't indeed have red ctrls, it means he has something along lines of Kxx QJ(x) QJx(x) KQx(x), that's the worst 14 count I can think of.

The worst I can think of is KQx Jx QJxxx KQx.

[cherdano]

Don't play serious 3NT when one partner is limited. 3NT here could be either COG (that's what I would assume), or a slam try with no shortness.

No cuebid = bad news. You showed a slam try with 5404 or 5413. Partner's first obligation isn't to tell you which controls he has, but whether he has a good hand for slam opposite your shape. 4S says he does not.

Of course, slam could be excellent - KQx QJx KJxxx KQ, but that's quite a few magical intermediate honors. But going on seems against the odds - on most hands we will have to worry about late losers in the round suits. (Ruffing 3rd or 4th round losers is a bad plan with a 5-3 fit and AT432 in the long trump hand.)

This post has been edited by cherdano: 2011-September-17, 07:29

[aguahombre]

 mgoetze, on 2011-September-17, 06:34, said:

In general we play frivolous 3NT (for spades). But do you think it should apply on this auction?

Yes. This auction is quite open to extention of serious (or non-serious, your choice) 3NT. 3NT is idle and available. We switch from NS to Serious 3NT for this one, though. Both are clearly interested in slam, since partner is already limited; but we want to be able to pattern right now with the mild slam try like OP's, and use 3NT when we are positive there is a slam if we have the controls.

This is one of two serious 3NT scenarios when 1NT has been opened. The other is after a transfer and new suit at the 3-level.

1N-2H
2S-3D
3S....if using the "serious" version, responder can just bid 4D with something like AKJXX XX AQJX XX, but go strong with 3NT holding another king.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2011-September-17, 07:25

[VM1973]

Do you cue only aces, or do you also cue kings?

[aguahombre]

 VM1973, on 2011-September-17, 08:17, said:

Do you cue only aces, or do you also cue kings?

Your choice, I guess; I prefer kings because failure to cue 4C might solve the whole thing immediately.

But on the transfer and new-suit variant, followed by the stronger 3nt, Opener might just be able to apply Wood, where responder could not. (6 keys).

[han]

I don't think 3NT should be non-serious here, I think it should suggest playing 3NT.

I think 4S says partner has a bad hand for slam. It doesn't deny diamond and heart controls. I pass. Had partner bid 4H (last train, and denying a diamond control) then I'd bid 6C.

[MrAce]

 han, on 2011-September-17, 17:22, said:

I think 4S says partner has a bad hand for slam. It doesn't deny diamond and heart controls. I pass. Had partner bid 4H (last train, and denying a diamond control) then I'd bid 6C.

Sometimes failing to cue a suit means " i do not have a control in this suit". Especially if the pair is playing a style, which i think is very common by the way, that bidding 3♠ instead of 4♠ at the first place was a preaccept. I am not advocating this style, but we all know there are people who plays it this way.

If 3♠ did not mean such and opener should bid 3♠ regardless of his hand, then one can not disagree with what you and cherdano said.

[jdeegan]

I don't like this at all. Either my partner hates his hand, or else we lack both red aces. Given that, pard needs the magic hand: ♠ KQ, ♥ QJ, and ♣ KQ with some wasted ♦ cards on the side. I pass 4♠.

[mgoetze]

 cherdano, on 2011-September-17, 06:54, said:

No cuebid = bad news. You showed a slam try with 5404 or 5413. Partner's first obligation isn't to tell you which controls he has, but whether he has a good hand for slam opposite your shape. 4S says he does not.

Is there any hand you would bid 4♠ on directly instead of 3♠?

Also, it isn't entirely clear to me that I can't have some sort of 5422.

In practice, partner did have ♦K but hated his hand, however, we agreed afterwards that if he hates his hand he should show that right away, and once he has bid 3♠ he should be forced to cuebid (and thus I should bid slam on this sequence).

[cherdano]

Showing shape is really important. I would just agree that 4♥ is a balanced slam try (5422), 3NT is an offer to play there, 4m is 54(31) or 54(40). As a Corollary, 3♠ doesn't promise a slam-suitable hand - any hand that would pass 3NT also has to bid that.

But in any case, just because your hand looks good after partner bids 3♥ doesn't mean you can't hate it after partner showed diamond shortness.

[MrAce]

 cherdano, on 2011-September-18, 06:07, said:

Showing shape is really important. I would just agree that 4♥ is a balanced slam try (5422), 3NT is an offer to play there, 4m is 54(31) or 54(40). As a Corollary, 3♠ doesn't promise a slam-suitable hand - any hand that would pass 3NT also has to bid that.

But in any case, just because your hand looks good after partner bids 3♥ doesn't mean you can't hate it after partner showed diamond shortness.

Thats the answer i was expecting, and i agree with this partially.

Cherdano, are you telling me that in your choice of methods, you would not be able to make any bid that forces pd to cue, when only thing u need was a control and keycards ? Not needing any extras or a good hand from pd ?

It doesn't make too much sense to me to sacrifice this ability just to keep 3 NT as COG when we already have a major fit(**see the bottom line). I admit there will be hands you want to do that but i can probably live without it. There must be a way for responder to force to slam and cuebid instead of asking pd's opinion. I just cant see this in your suggested methods unless sacrificing from learning if we have 2 losers in a suit or not before 4NT level and/or sacrificing from keycards.

You play 3 NT as COG
You play 4m as pattern (or shortness)

Excessive passing the ball to each other does not work well all the time imo. Eventhough i have sympathy to your choice of methods, i just am having hard time to accept the inability to make a bid that forces pd to cue and load everything for asking pd's opinion, which has other complications anyway. I would give up on COG on anyday when i have a major fit and the award was as big as ability to ask what i need to ask.

I suggest

3NT = forces pd to cue
4m = asks pd to judge his hand again due to our shortness.
4♥=5422 slam invitation.

**1NT opener can always bid 3NT over 3♥ with hands like Jxx Qx AQJx AJTx.

Just my opinion.

[aguahombre]

 MrAce, on 2011-September-18, 15:37, said:

Excessive passing the ball to each other does not work well all the time imo. Eventhough i have sympathy to your choice of methods, i just am having hard time to accept the inability to make a bid that forces pd to cue and load everything for asking pd's opinion, which has other complications anyway. I would give up on COG on anyday when i have a major fit and the award was as big as ability to ask what i need to ask.

I suggest

3NT = forces pd to cue
4m = asks pd to judge his hand again due to our shortness.
4♥=5422 slam invitation.

**1NT opener can always bid 3NT over 3♥ with hands like Jxx Qx AQJx AJTx.

Just my opinion.

Agree with this; all, except the very last 3 words.

[Phil]

I think a good meta rule when non-serious is not on is that new suits are help-suit slam tries.

[mike777]

 mgoetze, on 2011-September-17, 05:40, said:

---

Your bid? If you think form of scoring matters, please elaborate. Would your bid change if partner had 15-17?

pass easy


we told pard our hand



dont make it complicated with confusing 3nt bids.

pard has 14-16


we have slam try with h and s and clubs.......wtp?

so we miss a 26 hcp slam next hand/

good bidding/.

[MrAce]

 Phil, on 2011-September-18, 21:47, said:

I think a good meta rule when non-serious is not on is that new suits are help-suit slam tries.

Irrelevant here, the 3NT i suggested is not serious 3 NT, eventhough it looks like it. You can easily use it for cue force and not worry about your new suits being slm try/offer because opener is already limited, when responder says "we are not playing slam" its the end of the story as oppose to 2/1 auctions after 1M opening.

[gnasher]

 MrAce, on 2011-September-18, 15:37, said:

3NT = forces pd to cue
4m = asks pd to judge his hand again due to our shortness.
4♥=5422 slam invitation.

That's what I'd play too. I can't really think of a hand where I'd have chosen this route but would now want to suggest 3NT. If we have 5422 opposite 3244, opener's hand will provide heart ruffs in 4♠; if opener is 33(43), it will be hard to judge how well stopped our 3-2 minor is. Also, if we're going to play 3NT on this sort of deal, I'd prefer to do it without giving away so much information, so with a hand like Jxxxx KQJx Qx Qx it feels better to just bid 1NT-2♣;2♦-3NT.

[han]

Why would it be hard to judge how well-stopped our 3-2 minor is, opener can look at his 3-card minor, can't he? How hard can it be for opener to judge whether 3NT is good when partner has shown exactly 5422 shape and suggests playing 3NT?