[jillybean]

Does 3♠ so extra's or simply preference?

1♥:1♠
2♣:2N
3♠

[aguahombre]

Responder has enough to invite, but not demand game; so, he could easily have five spades on this auction. 2D would have committed to game.

So, Opener shows enough values to accept game and is showing 3 spades enroute. The Pattern will be 3-5-1-4 (maybe 3-5-0-5). Too late for simply preference because:

Opener does not know, for sure, that responder does have 5 spades, so he cannot bypass 3NT and jump to 4S. The 3S bid has a range starting at about 13, but could be just below jump-shift.

[nigel_k]

For me it shows extras because I would raise to 2♠ if minimum 3514. But it is forcing regardless.

[jillybean]

nigel_k, on 2011-September-16, 19:34, said:

For me it shows extras because I would raise to 2♠ if minimum 3514. But it is forcing regardless.

Thanks, I think this is a key point here. Is the corollary to this that we must always raise with a minimum hand (added) and 3514?

[nigel_k]

jillybean, on 2011-September-16, 20:05, said:

Thanks, I think this is a key point here. Is the corollary to this that we must always raise with 3514?

With extra values, e.g. Qxx x AKJxx AJxx I would bid 2♣ over 1♠ then 2♠ if partner gives preference to 2♥. The hand is too good to just raise immediately to 2♠ but I would still like to stop low if partner is minimum.

[Phil]

Extras.

[jillybean]

jillybean, on 2011-September-16, 20:05, said:

Thanks, I think this is a key point here. Is the corollary to this that we must always raise with a minimum hand (added) and 3514?

nigel_k, on 2011-September-16, 20:19, said:

With extra values, e.g. Qxx x AKJxx AJxx I would bid 2♣ over 1♠ then 2♠ if partner gives preference to 2♥. The hand is too good to just raise immediately to 2♠ but I would still like to stop low if partner is minimum.

Agree.

I know some players have a method to determine if 2♠ was made on a 3 or 4 card raise. Is this important, if so what method do you use?

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2011-September-16, 18:40, said:

Does 3♠ so extra's or simply preference?

1♥:1♠
2♣:2N
3♠

1) FOR STARTERS any bid over 2nt I play as gf never a pref. in fact pard cannot pref.
2) you can debate if 3s=Hx or xxx.

[Hanoi5]

I thought it showed a 'preference' to spades, i.e. 3 spades. Of course it implies that opener wants to go higher so it's an acceptance of the invitation of 2NT so it should be forcing.

after:
1x-1M
2M-2NT

asks opener how he supported, you can choose the set of responses you want, I usually play:

3♣ 3-card support with a singleton
3♦ 4-card support with a singleton
3♥ 3 no sing
3♠ 4 no sing
3NT 4333 with 4-card support

[MrAce]

Extras for the reasons Nigel explained in his first post.

jillybean, on 2011-September-16, 20:05, said:

Thanks, I think this is a key point here. Is the corollary to this that we must always raise with a minimum hand (added) and 3514?

Yes.

[Fluffy]

What you do with 3154 doesn't relly matter jilly, 3♠ is Game Forcing because otherwise you are on silly land on a 4-3 fit too often.

[Bbradley62]

nigel_k, on 2011-September-16, 20:19, said:

With extra values, e.g. Qxx x AKJxx AJxx I would bid 2♣ over 1♠ then 2♠ if partner gives preference to 2♥. The hand is too good to just raise immediately to 2♠ but I would still like to stop low if partner is minimum.

Sorry... are your red suits flipped?

[Zelandakh]

There are quite a few schemes around after 1m - 1M - 2M. First of all the simplest a la Acol is to simply play that 2NT is an invite with a 4 card suit which Opener can correct to 3M with a min and 4 card support. Similarly for 3NT. The most common scheme is 3434, that is that if Responder bids the next step (some play always 2NT instead) the bids are ordered 3 + min; 4 + min; 3 + extras; 4 + extras. There are also more complicated version too where Opener can show a shortage along the way. Hanoi's method is one variety of this but there are also others. There was also a thread (at least one) about this subject not so long ago which might be worth looking up.

[jillybean]

Zelandakh, on 2011-September-17, 13:38, said:

There was also a thread (at least one) about this subject not so long ago which might be worth looking up.

Can anyone provide the link to it, please?

[Gerben42]

jillybean, on 2011-September-16, 18:40, said:

Does 3♠ so extra's or simply preference?

1♥:1♠
2♣:2N

The normal meanings of the bids here are:

3♣: Minimum 5 - 5 (doesn't want to play 2NT)
3♦: GF, patterning out
3♥: GF, as a minimum 6 - 4 hand would rebid 2♥
3♠: GF, patterning out
3NT: To play

Except 3♣, all bids are geared towards finding the best game.