[inquiry]

mr1303, on Oct 8 2004, 02:26 PM, said:

Ben mentioned whether 1C 1S 2S 3C should be forcing or not. Here's a hand that came up in a challenge the champs bidding competition:

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The bidding went 1D 1H 2H 3D. If 3D is forcing, how should I bid on? 3H should definitely promise a 4th heart here, I reckon.

A good hand for illustratvie purposes. Richard will tell you that you have to bid over 3D because you have already found your "fit" in hearts, and so this is forcing. That is the way I played it until about 1 year ago. Since misho taught me the advantage of 3D here being a game try but NON=FORCING, I have found this 3D nf bid very useful, both on real hands, and on simulated hands. We use 2NT as the conventional force, so if you are unwilling to give up 2NT from its natural meaning, mabye 3D here shoulc be forcing.. but for me, this non-forcing 3D is perfect.

Ben

[Flame]

mr1303, on Oct 8 2004, 01:26 PM, said:

Ben mentioned whether 1C 1S 2S 3C should be forcing or not. Here's a hand that came up in a challenge the champs bidding competition:

---

The bidding went 1D 1H 2H 3D. If 3D is forcing, how should I bid on? 3H should definitely promise a 4th heart here, I reckon.

I think you can bid 3h now.
The point is to stay flexiable.
3h shouldnt show 4 card support.
you wont get to 4h on 4-3 uless its right, which is when partner's stopers looks like yours.

[the hog]

"Totally agree and I NEVER (well nearly) fit my partner with 3 cards !

A fit is 8 cards and when partial contracts will play well in 7 cards fit, it is not the same for game or slam contracts !

When you are shortened in a 4-3 fit, the contracts are doomed most of the times !

If you always raise with 3 cards, you never know where you are ! "

Hmm! I'd better show this post to my Moscito pd and tell him the results we were getting were imaginary and that we didn't know what we were doing. We play(ed) a lot of 4-3 fits in partscores and games. We found getting the auction up to the 2 level on a 7 card fit a huge winner. (4 handed vs 2 handed again?).

[EricK]

Quote

Totally agree and I NEVER (well nearly) fit my partner with 3 cards !

A fit is 8 cards and when partial contracts will play well in 7 cards fit, it is not the same for game or slam contracts !

When you are shortened in a 4-3 fit, the contracts are doomed most of the times !

If you always raise with 3 cards, you never know where you are !

You seem to be under the impression that once the partnership has agreed the major then they are committed to playing in the major.

Pairs who raise on 3 frequently do not labour under this misapprehension. If we are headed for game there is still time to see whether NT or opener's minor (or even the other major!) are better places to play.

And if the hand is a part score, 2M is not only a reasonable contract, it is often the best contract even on a 4-3 fit.

Eric

[luke warm]

i'm sure someone can run a sim giving opener 3 card M support in a flattish hand with 1) 12-14 and 2) 15-17 (to account for the 2 more likely 1nt openings/rebids) and *see* how often 1nt vs. 2M comes out ahead... of course responder's hand would range from 4 to, i guess, 6, with most hands having 4 (barely) then 5, then 6 pcs

[the hog]

Jimmy like everything this depends on the system you play. If you open a 12-14 NT like Eric or an 11-14 nt like in Moscito, then the raise is never made on a balanced 4432 4333 5332 as these hands fall in the NT opening. Raises look like 3145 or similar.
Ron

[luke warm]

eggzactly

[Fluffy]

I could see a far to unnderstand point in raising with 3 cards when your hand is unbalanced, but when you are balanced I can really see no benefit.

Why?, simply because if you rebid 1NT you aren´t gonna play NT with ♠ fit, passing with any 5 card mayor opposite a balanced hand has no sense to me, jsut auto rebid your major and play 2 of them with 7-8 card fit.

Why these?, simple: if partner has 3 cards you have fit and better play in 2M, if partner has 2 cards then even more better play in 2M since the lack of entries to your hand won´t let you stablish the suit.

[luke warm]

that's true, i think... from my perspective, if i open 1m and pard responds 1M, and i then rebid 1nt, there are many ways to bid invitational or game force hands... if responder has 5 or even 6 pcs in his major, he can simply rebid it (with a less than an invitational hand)... he knows i have 2 cards minimum in his suit for my nt bid, he knows my strength is 15-17, and he can do what seems right

iow, we never lose a 5/2 or 5/3 fit when opener rebids 1nt unless responder judges that it's best to pass... yes, we can lose a 4/3 fit, but i'm not convinced 1nt is all that bad a contract with that holding

the above doesn't apply when opener is unbalanced, of course... by all means support with 3, rebid your other 4 card suit, etc