[sceptic]

http://master.mx-targeting.com/mx/servlet/...D20041014%26cnt

I would like your opinions on how you would bid this hand, I would be quite interested also in different systems

[sceptic]

Sorry here is the hand

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     1♦    Pass
 2♦    Dbl   Pass  3♣
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

[Free]

North should bid again, something like 3♥ (should be forcing) and since you won't support, he can end up in 5♣.

[inquiry]

Not really possible to get to magic 6♣, becuase, reverse either player major and there is no play for 12 tricks. But 5♣ may be reachable. Oddly enough, it maybe easier to bid if YOU dont play lebehnshol 2NT over 2♦X, so that in theory 3♣ shows some values (many would only play over major double or opening bid of weak two in major double).

I would not bid 3♥ over 3♣, but I would bid 3♦... then support clubs next. If south's bid promised some values (since no lebenhsol), he may think he has a lot less than promised and pass 4♣. If 3♣ promised nothing more than 4 or 5 small clubs (no lebehnshol), south will be quite happy to carry on to game.

How should the bidding go? WEst should bid 1♠ and North double... I think is the normal start.. :-)

Ben

[the hog]

sceptic, on Oct 15 2004, 02:59 AM, said:

Sorry here is the hand

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     1♦    Pass
 2♦    Dbl   Pass  3♣
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Wow it looks like 3 of the 4 players were smoking noxious substances here.

The 1D bid is fine
What is this 2D, hiding a 4 card S suit?
X is fine
3C is an overbid
Pass is an underbid

My auction

1D P 1S X
2S 2N P 3S
P 5C

X is takeout
2N is leb, here showing a weak hand but a willingness to compete
3S says regardless if you want to compete in C or H I have a great hand in support
5C says ok, I have a 6th C hope thats enough.

[luke warm]

my auction

1nt (p) 2c (i don't know) 2d (p) p (i still don't know)

[Flame]

inquiry, on Oct 14 2004, 12:14 PM, said:

Not really possible to get to magic 6♣

Ben im pretty sure you cant make 6c here if they lead spade, or even if they lead diamond and shift to spade.
I think north's hand worth another move although its a close call, if 2d is inverted then i would pass, even if 2d is 6-9, its a close call and bidding can turn out very bad.
south hand can just as well be
Qxx
xxx
Qxx
Jxxx
And 3 clubs might go down 2. while 4c is likely to get double and pay 500 or 800
South hand had much more offensive power then avarage, yet i dont see south bidding anything else then 3c.
All in all its not easy and not a big mistake to pass 3c (nothing you should feel bad about).

[helium]

inquiry, on Oct 14 2004, 12:14 PM, said:

Not really possible to get to magic 6♣

how is this a magic 6 ♣?
even 5 club is hard on a ♣lead

[Flame]

helium, on Oct 14 2004, 06:57 PM, said:

inquiry, on Oct 14 2004, 12:14 PM, said:

Not really possible to get to magic 6♣

how is this a magic 6 ♣?
even 5 club is hard on a ♣lead

5c will make on any lead ,you will get the 10 of heart, but to make 6 you need helping diffence.

[jtfanclub]

[the hog]

JTF:

Point 1
Where does it say that 2D is forcing and does not deny a Major?

Point 2
Read my post. Over the actual bidding 2N is still leb showing a weak hand. 3C is an overbid regardless of whether you think so or not - it is at least a king shy of what it should show if you play 2N as leb. I can only assume you don't understand Lebensohl. I think there was a thread about it in these forums that you would do well to read.

[sceptic]

The way the bidding went in the example hand

West North East South

- - 1♦ Pass
2♦ Dbl Pass 3♣
Pass Pass Pass

Did I have another option other than 3clubs


if 2diamond was inverted minor?

or if 2 diamond was not an inverted minor?

also, (I hope I understand the comments)If I over bid 3 clubs, is that still not a better bid than nt or pass after my p's x?

[the hog]

This is the point I made. 3C is an overbid. If I bid 3C my pds would be looking for 6 here without a doubt. (I don't know what jtf is smoking while penning his post, but its probably expensive).

Bid 2N lebensohl regardless of whether 2D was an inverted minor or not, intending to pass partner's 3C bid, a bid he would make with a weaker hand than the one he has. Now on the actual hand pd is too rich in controls to simply take the puppet to 3C and should bid 3D - he knows you have a weak hand with C or some sort of invit hand else why did you use leb? With H or S you could simply have bid 2H/S.

Over 3D I would hope that my 6th c card is good enough for a 5 level contract and would bid 5C. (Pd should pass 4C from you as this would really show filth.)

[jtfanclub]

Quote

Point 1
Where does it say that 2D is forcing and does not deny a Major?

Given the bidding and that the opponents don't have access to my good stuff, I'm figuring post facto that's what it must have meant.

Quote

Read my post. Over the actual bidding 2N is still leb showing a weak hand. 3C is an overbid regardless of whether you think so or not - it is at least a king shy of what it should show if you play 2N as leb.

I don't play Lebensohl in that sequence...I wasn't aware that others did. If I'm a king stronger with this hand, I want to be able to bid 2NT, so that I can invite 3NT and play it from my side so my diamonds aren't overly vulnerable. I don't see any reason why I'd want to play in clubs.

Given that if you don't bid a major on this sequence you almost certainly have clubs, what is the advantage of playing Lebensohl? And would you play it even if the suit bid was clubs rather than diamonds? And if so, why?

[pclayton]

I think I'd just raise to 4♣ with the North hand. South's hand is now working pretty hard and can take the push opposite know diamond shortage.

I like Ron's auction if it started 1♦ - pass - 1♠.

By the way, I play a lot of Lebensohl and Good/Bad sequences and 2N. In the actual auction, I would play 2N as natural. The utility over 2♦ to show G/B with clubs is rather limited.

[Fluffy]

The auction should be...


1♦-p-1♠-X
2♠-p-3♠-X
p-5♣-5♦-X
p-p-p

or alternativelly 5♠ from East.

[the hog]

jtfanclub, on Oct 15 2004, 07:03 PM, said:

Quote

Point 1
Where does it say that 2D is forcing and does not deny a Major?

Given the bidding and that the opponents don't have access to my good stuff, I'm figuring post facto that's what it must have meant.

Quote

Read my post. Over the actual bidding 2N is still leb showing a weak hand. 3C is an overbid regardless of whether you think so or not - it is at least a king shy of what it should show if you play 2N as leb.

I don't play Lebensohl in that sequence...I wasn't aware that others did. If I'm a king stronger with this hand, I want to be able to bid 2NT, so that I can invite 3NT and play it from my side so my diamonds aren't overly vulnerable. I don't see any reason why I'd want to play in clubs.

Given that if you don't bid a major on this sequence you almost certainly have clubs, what is the advantage of playing Lebensohl? And would you play it even if the suit bid was clubs rather than diamonds? And if so, why?

Just for JT

The advantages of playing Lebensohl here are as follows:

1) You can distinguish between a good hand with C - direct 3C, and a hand that just wants to compete in C - eg the given hand, by going via 2NT

2) You can show a gf hand with 4Major and a stopper

3) You can show a gf hand with 4Major and no stopper

4) You can show a gf hand with no 4Major and no stopper

5) You can show a gf hand with no 4Major and a stopper

In other words, you have many more ways of describing your holding to partner.

To play 2N as natural when the opps have bid and raised is a poor philosophy. You are contracting for exactly 8 tricks, and they have a known safe lead. If you have a long suit and can bring it in you will likely make more than 8, otherwise less than 8. You are saying you will make exactly 8 if partner passes an invitational 2NT.