[Cascade]

Pass 1♥ Pass Pass
Double Pass 1♠ Pass
?

Say I doubled here with three spades. Can I now bid 1NT? It seems nothing bad can happen. Partner might Pass, might bid a minor, might rebid spades. Ok it could be bad if 1♠ was our best spot.

[rhm]

Frankly I do not understand the question.
For me normal or standard is that DBL followed by a notrump bid promises a different, stronger HCP range, whether you are in second or fourth position.
It has little to do with the question whether you hold 3 cards or 2 cards in spades.
The normal or standard range is that 1NT in the balancing position shows something in the range of a weak notrump (11-14 HCP) and double followed by a notrump rebid shows 15-17 HCP.

Anything else requires specific agreement in my opinion.

Rainer Herrmann

[manudude03]

Rainer, he's a passed hand already, he won't have 12+.

I would assume it's something like 2254, possibly 3154 with poor spades. If you had longer clubs, you could bid 2C over 1S.

[mich-b]

Yes, it seems that nothing terribly bad can happen.
However , I am having trouble finding a hand holding which you would be confident that 1NT (or 2m) would play better than 1♠ , but still chose to balance with double rather than 1NT.

[dake50]

Partner has a near 1S overcall but minimum left to
reopening as little more than a partial to hope for
after you passed. That'll end in 4-3 clubs or 5-3
diamonds, never 3-5 spades. Unless reopening Dbl
promises 3+S so partner can bid to 3-5 spade fit?
Or partner has 4xS not worth an overcall. Now 1NT
gets to a 4-3 clubs when 5-3 diamonds was available.
Hope no 3-4 clubs or partner's 5=4=2=2 quits 1NT?
I really like pass. I have 3+S at the 1-level and
no surety a minor fit is better. Score 80/110 in 1S or
try for 90/110 in 2m? Too small a target to take
an ambiguous risk with 1NT asking a minor.

[benlessard]

I like to X and 1nt with at least 3 in all other suit (3343,3334) and a balancing 1Nt overcall suggest a xx somewhere (2335,3352). Any hand with 3S and doubleton H I would pass 1S. So that way when partner has a 5m im not playing 1nt which is fairly frequent (compared to the odds of him having 5S and not able to overcall)

[rhm]

Sorry I misread the problem.

As a passed hand you should bid 1NT on any excuse. The only issue really is why you doubled first.
But it is normally a good idea to get to 1NT played from your side. Better late than never.

Rainer Herrmann

[jmcw]

I've never had this auction come up, as far as I can remember.
If opening bidder has a near minimum, then P is likely to have only 4 ♠ and maybe a 10 count.
If opener has another bid then P could have 5 ♠ and just a few points.

In either case I would forego the X and just bid 1NT at my first turn. I don't understand the X and pulling unless you have some agreement that it shows a specific takeout to the minors.

[Fluffy]

I haven´t seen it before, I´m struggling to find a hand that wants to play 1NT now, but didn´t wanna bid 1NT earlier, can´t see it because with 33(43) I´d bid 1NT and with 3244 I´d be happy to be able to ruff a heart in my hand.

Only thing that makes some sense is 33(43) with 3 low hearts or very bad ones (IE, trying to avoid playing 3NT if reopened 1NT).

[phil_20686]

I dont understand how you can think 1N might be playable spot if partner has shown 0-7. Surely he would jump to block out this auction with 8-10 HCP ish. 1N could just get doubled for lots when the 1H opener is just waiting to see what will happen before unloading a game.

[bluecalm]

It should probably show 2-1-5-5/2-2-(5-4) or something. Hard to imagine we want to play 1NT instead of 1♠ with normal t/o double.

[mikeh]

I see zero sense in playing 1N here as an offer to play 1N. Had we wanted to make that offer, the time for it was a round earlier.....I see little merit in an agreement that 1N on the first round denies 3 spades and now promises 3♠ and, absent that sgreement, I can't think of a hand that would prefer double then a natural 1N to an immediate 1N.

Otoh, I can see a theoretical but, in practice, flawed reason to play this sequence as specifically 3=1=5=4 or 3=1=4=5, with 1N now being for the minors, but allowing partner to prefer back to spades with the appropriate hand.

Flawed for two reasons: one is frequency and the other is practicality...the two are linked.

Think about the auction....and, in particular, the fact that the opps presumably have about half the deck, given that partner bid a mere 1♠. If we have a stiff heart, where are the other 12 cards in the suit? Opener has 5 or 6...with 7 he'd surely bid over the double. Responder almost surely lacks as many as 3 since he sold out to 1♠. Thus partner probably has 8 or 9 major suit cards.

Most of the time, when we hold this shape, the auction won't happen. When it does, partner will usually not fit either minor, and if he does have a fit, it will usually be in our 4 card suit, not our 5 card suit....why are we trying to get out a spade fit, with our ruffing values, into a lower-scoring minor partscore at a higher level? Are we really trying to prepare for LHO's balancing into 2♥ after his partner passed twice?

So while I think the sequence should show 3154/3145, I also think we shouldn't make the call very often, if ever.

[gnasher]

I don't think you can double 1♥ with a doubleton spade here - if the auction gets competitive and/or partner has a good hand, he needs to have some idea about our suit lengths.

Imagine a 3343 10-count with ♥Kxx which would balance with 1NT. Now move a small heart into the club suit to make it 3244. What's wrong with doubling and then bidding 1NT? If partner bids a minor in reply to the double, that's fine. If he doesn't, we probably have two balanced hands and about half the high-cards, and we take him out of a wrongsided 4-3 fit into a rightsided 1NT contract. Or maybe he'll be 4-4 in spades and a minor, so now we'll find our fit after all.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I don't think you can double 1♥ with a doubleton spade here - if the auction gets competitive and/or partner has a good hand, he needs to have some idea about our suit lengths.

Having a doubleton sucks, that's for sure but doubling with 2-1-5-5, 2-2-(5-4) has some benefits like being able to double them in 1[haerts] if partner is trapping or play the best partial in any scenario other than partner jumping to 2♠ with 4 of them which he will be very unwilling to do after our initial pass.
Partner rarely has 5 spades to begin with because he didn't overcall presumably having some points so I wouldn't worry that much.

[Cascade]

It seemed to me that while I didn't double intending to rebid 1NT that when the opponents were silent and partner bid 1♠ that she was marked with values and hence was unlikely to have five spades. Therefore 1NT might improve the contract directly or partner could possibly bid a four or even a five-card minor.

On the actual hand I was 3=3=3=4 with three small hearts but obviously based on the above reasoning 1NT would be even better with 3=2=4=4.

[gszes]

pass

what BAD could happen is that p might think your
hand is distributional (ie minors). Just because p
bid 1s does NOT mean they have a poor hand they
know you passed originally and they could be
underbidding their values because they think game
chances are slim to none opposite a passed hand.

1s is certainly playable even with 34 so leave it alone
and dont do anything here that might encourage p to
bid em up some more.

[benlessard]

gnasher, on 2012-January-05, 18:40, said:

I don't think you can double 1♥ with a doubleton spade here - if the auction gets competitive and/or partner has a good hand, he needs to have some idea about our suit lengths.

Imagine a 3343 10-count with ♥Kxx which would balance with 1NT. Now move a small heart into the club suit to make it 3244. What's wrong with doubling and then bidding 1NT? If partner bids a minor in reply to the double, that's fine. If he doesn't, we probably have two balanced hands and about half the high-cards, and we take him out of a wrongsided 4-3 fit into a rightsided 1NT contract. Or maybe he'll be 4-4 in spades and a minor, so now we'll find our fit after all.

Or you could just X with a 3343 for exactly the same reasons you gave, partner is heavy favorite to have a balanced hand here but he might be 3352/3325 in wich case 2m will play better than 1Nt most of the time. Also in the cases where he as a doubleton H but is too weak to double 3235/3253 if you X rather than balacing with 1Nt he might compete to 3m rather than defending 2H, while if you balance with 1NT he might be scared of Xing (responsive) 2H.

IMO X followed by 1Nt should suggest 3/3 in the m not 4/4 its just more worthy for frequency reasons. With a 3244 and Kx or AQ in H X followed by 1Nt also make sense but most hand with a doubleton H and 3S should pass. The good thing is also that a balancing 1Nt now suggest a doubleton somewhere and partner will usually guess right, wich is often necessary to defeat those 2H contract.

The ugly case are when partner is 3343/3334 with xxx in H and bid 2m wich is ugly, also it allow opener to squeeze in a 1S bid or XX that is unavailable over the 1nt balancing.