[Phil]

---

Fortunately the other table didn't bid slam either, but this was 13 badly needed IMPs in the last match.

ATB.

[whereagles]

Compounded. I think both players were lazy.

East has a nice 2/1, with lotsa controls. He could have temporized with 2NT over 2♦.
West could have bid 4♦ over 3NT. The direct 4S was, well.. agricultural, as they say.

[aguahombre]

We are not told whether East had established a game-force with 2♣, so we don't really know if 2NT was available with his hand. If 2NT was available, East has done fine with his jump to 3NT ---2NT, then 4NT (over opener's 3NT) would have been even stronger.

West has to move over 3NT. 4♦ seems like a good idea, but perhaps he was concerned about not showing the 6th spade. The problem was 4S did not show slam interest, but 4D would have.

[Phil]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-06, 11:10, said:

We are not told whether East had established a game-force with 2♣

I am not aware of any responding system where 2♣ can be short, but not be a GF, so I apologize for not mentioning that.

I also apologize for not stating whether or not we play five card majors and that 1♠ was not a FERT bid, nor was it MOSCITO.

[Hanoi5]

East could have done more, I think.

[aguahombre]

Phil, on 2012-February-06, 11:16, said:

I am not aware of any responding system where 2♣ can be short, but not be a GF, so I apologize for not mentioning that.

I also apologize for not stating whether or not we play five card majors and that 1♠ was not a FERT bid, nor was it MOSCITO.

Wow, Phil. Was anything I mentioned after that (which assumed G.F.) of any use to you?

[Phil]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-06, 11:22, said:

Wow, Phil. Was anything I mentioned after that (which assumed G.F.) of any use to you?

The 2nd paragraph was fine, thanks.

The first sentence of the first paragraph was a meaningless (actually I am being nice when I call it 'meaningless') comment. The 2nd sentence was equally meaningless, because if I'm going to the bother of explaining that 2♣ is "2+", I think I'd mention if we play 2N as a GF balanced hand (which I like by the way, and would be very useful on this hand, because a 2N rebid could include a stronger balanced hand).

I realize I sometimes come off as a dick (as I am here), but its in the spirit of getting more thought behind comments, especially from regular posters (who I like btw). I would ignore you if I didn't.

[rogerclee]

West should bid 4D over 3N, after that I think 4H-4S-4N gets you there.

[aguahombre]

O.K. the 2nd sentence meant:

1S-2C
2D-? 2NT would be minimum G.F. or 18-19, and the jump to 3NT showing in between the two was just fine, IMO. Therefore, East seems to have done nothing on the given hand to garner any blame. It was all up to the judgement of West whether the slam would be reached.

Yes, I like a direct 2NT to be natural rather than J2N, but that seemed irrelevant to the thread which obviously assumes 2C is used for all balanced natural G.F. responses.

[nigel_k]

I think East's bidding was fine, assuming the jump to 3NT shows extras which I think it should. West should have done more.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

nigel_k, on 2012-February-06, 13:34, said:

I think East's bidding was fine, assuming the jump to 3NT shows extras which I think it should. West should have done more.

3NT-jump was a picture bid showing 15-17 ..... ( in a 2/1 GF auction...with less than 3 cards in Opener's 1st suit and less than 4 cards in Opener's 2nd suit ) .

In general:

1x 2y 2N = 12-14 or 18-19 (18-19 will bid above 3N)
1x 2y 3N = 15-17
1x 2y 2z 2N = 12-14 or 18-19 (18-19 will bid above 3N)
1x 2y 2z 3N = 15-17

[TWO4BRIDGE]

As weak as opener is, it seems the most important information to give to partner ( after his 2/1 GF )-- sooner rather than later -- is knowledge of the 6th ♠ either by a 2S rebid or 2NT! -- whatever your agreement is .

[rhm]

Short of playing a relay system or something similar I think you have little chance reaching the right contract at the right level with any degree of confidence.
Sure West could have bid 4♦ at his third turn and on a sunny day the partnership might have reached 6♦ or 6♠.
But those advocating this approach here should also explain how they would stop in 4♠ if opener's hearts and clubs were interchanged.

Another interesting aspect of standard modern bidding:

East jump to 3NT might be well and good for reaching or staying out of 6NT.
But if opener, like here, is distributional it effectively preempts the partnership, nullifying the benefits what an early game forcing approach is supposed to accomplish.

Rainer Herrmann

[gwnn]

Phil do you play 3NT=15-17 ish?

[Zelandakh]

rhm, on 2012-February-07, 03:51, said:

Short of playing a relay system or something similar

Did someone mention relays?

1♠ = 10-17, 5+ spades
... - 1NT = INV+ relay
2♣ = min without 4 hearts
... - 2♦ = GF relay
2NT = 5+ diamonds
... - 3♣ = relay
4♥ = 6+ spades, club void, 3 controls
... - 4N = relay
5♥ = spade and diamond controls, no heart control
... - 5♠ = relay
6♣ = second spade control, no second diamond control
... - 6♠


FWiiW I have seen a 2♣ response as 2+ but not GF; a 2NT rebid is non-forcing. This hand really just illustrates a normal problem in 2/1 where both have a little extra (East in hcp, West in shape) but neither feels able to make the extra push which would push the bidding beyond game. That said, I would tend to agree with Roger here that West can afford 4♦ after 3NT. To address Rainer's point, perhaps with the minors reversed East can bid 5♣ after ... - 3NT; - 4♦ - 4♥; 4♠ with that hand?

[mcphee]

If you have to place blame I start with E who imho should continue with 2N rather than 3. West helped a bit failing to tell the entire tale of his hand. 3NT however is just a poor choice and created the mess the most.

[Phil]

gwnn, on 2012-February-07, 03:56, said:

Phil do you play 3NT=15-17 ish?

No its a min splinter.

[neilkaz]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-February-06, 15:44, said:

3NT-jump was a picture bid showing 15-17 ..... ( in a 2/1 GF auction...with less than 3 cards in Opener's 1st suit and less than 4 cards in Opener's 2nd suit ) .

In general:

1x 2y 2N = 12-14 or 18-19 (18-19 will bid above 3N)
1x 2y 3N = 15-17
1x 2y 2z 2N = 12-14 or 18-19 (18-19 will bid above 3N)
1x 2y 2z 3N = 15-17

I like this method as I like to limit my HCP, but other prefer fast arrival and 2NT is not bound by a range, but anyhow on the actual auction I'd show at least a minimal slam try and bid 4♦ rather than 4♠.

[han]

If 3NT showed 16-17 balanced without fit then it looks like a good bid.

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2012-February-07, 09:42, said:

No its a min splinter.

Someone give Phil a joint !