[relknes]

I have been messing around with the idea of using 1D as a bid promising a 4 card major.
The context is a sweedish club system (1C = 11-13 balanced or 17+) with a 14-16 NT. Over 1M, 2/1 is GF.
The 1D solves a lot of the "Problem hands" in this system, it seems. For instance, a hand with 4 spades and 5 hearts becomes easy to describe. Also, hands with a 5 clubs and a 4 card major become much more managable. 4441 hands become simpler as well.
The structure I have in mind is:

1♦ = 11-16 points, 4 card major (good quality if balanced), not 4333, if 11-13 balanced then 44 majors
.....1♥ = 4+ hearts, 6+ points
..........1♠ = 4-4 majors
..........1N = 4 good quality spades, balanced, 14-16 points, denies 4 hearts
..........2♣ = 4 spades, 5+ clubs (possibly 4441 with a singleton heart)
..........2♦ = 4 spades, 5+ diamonds
..........2♥ = 4 hearts, denies 4+ spades
.....1♠ = 4+ spades, 6+ points
..........1N = 4 good quality hearts, balanced, 14-16 points, denies 4 spades
..........2♣ = 4 hearts, 5+ clubs (possibly 4441 with a singleton spade)
..........2♦ = 4 hearts, 5+ diamonds
..........2♥ = 5+ hearts, 4 spades
..........2♠ = 4 spades

The drawback is that the 2♦ bid has to be used as 11-16, unbalanced, 5+ diamonds, no 4+ major (this can be even more specific if you allow hands with 54 minors and 22 majors to be treated as balanced).
My main concern with this is that competitive auctions could get messy, especially when the opponents compete in a minor. If the opponents find a major suit fit, then partner can either compete in the other major assuming you have 4 card support or else double as an "optional double" showing support for the other major and some defensive value in case you had 4 of the opponent's suit. If the opponents compete in a minor, however, partner can draw fewer conclusions... for instance, after 1♦-(3m) partner has little idea of how to compete, and opener almost cirtainly won't be able to take another bid.
So, 2 questions...
1) Is this a reasonable use for 1♦?
2) Are there gadgets that can be used to smooth out the competitive auctions?

[straube]

I played a system with 1D promising a 4-cd major and 1C was 16+. With 5H/4S we opened 1H.

1D-
.....1H-natural
..........1S-4S/5D or 4144
..........1N-11-15
..........2C-4S/5C
..........2D-4H, good
..........2H-4H, bad
.....1S-natural
..........1N-11-15
..........2C-4H/5C
..........2D-4H/5D
..........2H-4S, good
..........2S-4S, bad

opening 1N was 12-15 and denied a major

2m was 6 minor or 5m4m31

Imo, the system is fatally flawed. The NT ranges (whether opening 1N or rebidding 1N) are far too wide. I also dislike opening 1C with 16 balanced and I dislike opening 2C with something like x Axx Kxxx Axxxx. Occasionally neat things did happen...like sliding into Moysian fits and knowing when the opponents were competing in a 7-cd major suit fit....just not enough to make up for the rest.

[Siegmund]

I am experimenting with a similar system at the moment -- though with a twist: 1C = weak with 4 spades, or any strong hand; 1D = 4 hearts; 1M natural, 1N 11-14 no 4CM.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "fatally flawed" but the 1N opening is surprisingly hard to handle. It may just be that that is the price for fixing a hard-to-handle 1D in another system.

[whereagles]

How about 1D as any 44+ in the majors?

Sequences might be

1M = weak preference. Opener lifts with 5 cards and a max.
1NT= GF relay
2m = nat F1
2M = invitational, 3 cards. Can play 2NT if opener min.
2NT= invitational, 4 cards. Opener can bid the fragment now as as trial.

[straube]

 whereagles, on 2012-February-20, 15:37, said:

How about 1D as any 44+ in the majors?

Sequences might be

1M = weak preference. Opener lifts with 5 cards and a max.
1NT= GF relay
2m = nat F1
2M = invitational, 3 cards. Can play 2NT if opener min.
2NT= invitational, 4 cards. Opener can bid the fragment now as as trial.

Not nearly frequent enough. Also 1D-1M shouldn't be a sign off; the sequence is too important for that.

[relknes]

 whereagles, on 2012-February-20, 15:37, said:

How about 1D as any 44+ in the majors?

Sequences might be

1M = weak preference. Opener lifts with 5 cards and a max.
1NT= GF relay
2m = nat F1
2M = invitational, 3 cards. Can play 2NT if opener min.
2NT= invitational, 4 cards. Opener can bid the fragment now as as trial.

I have 3 concerns about your suggestion.
1) this fails to address most of the problem hands that I was worried about. It does great on the 4441 hands with a singleton minor, but with a singleton major you would have to open on a 4 card suit. It is also fine for hands with 4 spades and 5 hearts, but hands with a 4 card major and a 5 card minor suffer.
2) the frequency of the bid will be too low.
3) too many unused sequences at a low level. Sequences like 1♦-1M-2m are all completely unused.
I can see the benefits for competitive bidding, but the cost to uninterupted sequences just seems too high.
The benefit of 1♦ showing a 4 card major is that the followups are all very descriptive at a low level, and that the other opening bids are much narrower (it allows 5 card majors, and 2m bids that don't run nearly as much risk of missing a good 2M contract, as well as allowing you to play either 2M or 1N with a balanced hand with a good 4 card major).
This is, in a way, the oposite philosophy to 1♦ showing both majors. It has large benefits in uninterupted sequences, but at the cost of making competitive sequences more difficult.

[Bad_Wolf]

I once played, in the context of a big club system, that 1♦ promised a FIVE card major and 1M was exactly 4. With 5♠4♥ we opened 1♦ but with 5♥4♠ opened 1♠.

Unplayable you might think, but occasionally spectacularly successful.

[wclass___]

 relknes, on 2012-February-19, 19:38, said:

The drawback is that the 2♦ bid has to be used as 11-16, unbalanced, 5+ diamonds, no 4+ major (this can be even more specific if you allow hands with 54 minors and 22 majors to be treated as balanced).

What drawback?? Very logical 2♦, can't play everything.

You need a bid for balanced hands anyway so i would play 1♦ as
4M5m+ +4441 or
4M5m+ +4441 + balanced

I prefer 2nd, but it is not compatible with swedish club so it is 4M5m+ +4441 more likely

Anyway, also your 1♦ is playable, but there are more logical meanings around (including natural).

[PrecisionL]

Quote

Anyway, also your 1♦ is playable, but there are more logical meanings around (including natural).

I have been playing the Diamond Major (see URL below) for several years with several partners in a Precision Framework and we find it works well and we have tightened up the responses so as not to get too high with both partners having a minimum.

Also, 1♦ - 2♣ = pass correct with both minors and less than a Limit Raise.

Also, 1♦ - 2♦ = Limit Raise (may have a 4-cd Major).

http://www.bridgeclu...ems/Diamond.htm

[relknes]

 PrecisionL, on 2012-February-22, 22:02, said:

I have been playing the Diamond Major (see URL below) for several years with several partners in a Precision Framework and we find it works well and we have tightened up the responses so as not to get too high with both partners having a minimum.

Also, 1♦ - 2♣ = pass correct with both minors and less than a Limit Raise.

Also, 1♦ - 2♦ = Limit Raise (may have a 4-cd Major).

http://www.bridgeclu...ems/Diamond.htm

Thanks. That is very helpful. What conventions do you use when the opponents interfere over 1♦?

[straube]

 PrecisionL, on 2012-February-22, 22:02, said:

I have been playing the Diamond Major (see URL below) for several years with several partners in a Precision Framework and we find it works well and we have tightened up the responses so as not to get too high with both partners having a minimum.

Also, 1♦ - 2♣ = pass correct with both minors and less than a Limit Raise.

Also, 1♦ - 2♦ = Limit Raise (may have a 4-cd Major).

http://www.bridgeclu...ems/Diamond.htm

1D-1N=nf?
1D-2C=nf?
1D-2D=nf?

This makes it very difficult to force when responder has the minors. One has to consider, too, that opener may easily have more minor than major suit cards. The partnership will have little room to explore for the best minor suit fit and then determine level, etc.

[PrecisionL]

 straube, on 2012-February-23, 15:39, said:

1D-1N=nf?
1D-2C=nf?
1D-2D=nf?

This makes it very difficult to force when responder has the minors. One has to consider, too, that opener may easily have more minor than major suit cards. The partnership will have little room to explore for the best minor suit fit and then determine level, etc.

No problem.

1♦ - 1NT = 8-10 Not forcing
1♦ - 2♣ = 0-10 hcp 9 cards in the minors, Not Forcing
1♦ - 3♣ = Limit Raise with both minors, forcing 1 round
1♦ - 2♦ = Limit Raise, may have a 4-cd or better Major

Negative double for a major if interference

[relknes]

I am considering dropping the 5 heart 4 spade hands out of the 1♦ opening, and just opening them 1♥ like everyone else. Mostly this will make things easier in competition, but it will also make it easier to check for stoppers in NT after a 1♦ opener when responder has no 4 card major.
For those interested, my current thoughts on replies are:

1♦ = 11-16 points, 4 card major (good quality if balanced), not 4333, if 11-13 balanced then 44 majors
.....1♥ = 4+ hearts, 6+ points
..........1♠ = 4-4 majors
..........1N = 4 good quality spades, balanced, 14-16 points, denies 4 hearts
..........2♣ = 4 spades, 5+ clubs (possibly 4441 with a singleton heart)
..........2♦ = 4 spades, 5+ diamonds
..........2♥ = 4 hearts, denies 4+ spades
.....1♠ = 4+ spades, 6+ points
..........1N = 4 good quality hearts, balanced, 14-16 points, denies 4 spades
..........2♣ = 4 hearts, 5+ clubs (possibly 4441 with a singleton spade)
..........2♦ = 4 hearts, 5+ diamonds
..........2♥ = 4-4 majors
..........2♠ = 4 spades
.....1N = 8-11, no 4+ major
.....2♣ = 5+ clubs, no 4+ major, 10+ points
..........2♦= 5+ diamonds
..........2♥ = 11-14 points, 3+ clubs, hearts stopped for NT
..........2♠ = 11-14 points, 3+ clubs, spades stopped for NT
..........2N = 13-14 points, both majors stopped for NT
..........3♣ = 4+ clubs, neither major stopped for NT
..........3♦ = 15-16 points, 3+ clubs, diamonds stopped for NT
..........3♥ = 15-16 points, 3+ clubs, stopped for NT, no diamond stopper
..........3♠ = 15-16 points, 3+ clubs, stopped for NT, no diamond or heart stopper
..........3N = 15-16 points, diamonds hearts and spades stopped
.....2♦ = 5+ diamonds, no 4+ major, 10+ points
..........2♥ = 11-14 points, 3+ diamonds, hearts stopped for NT
..........2♠ = 11-14 points, 3+ diamonds, spades stopped for NT
..........2N = 13-14 points, both majors stopped for NT
..........3♣ = 5+ clubs
..........3♦ = 4+ diamonds, neither major stopped for NT
..........3♥ = 15-16 points, 3+ diamonds, stopped for NT, no diamond stopper
..........3♠ = 15-16 points, 3+ diamonds, stopped for NT, no diamond or heart stopper
..........3N = 15-16 points, clubs, hearts and spades stopped for NT
.....2M = strong jump shift
.....2N = 12-13, no 4+ major, no 5+ minor