[malem777]

My beginner-student opened with 1NT even though he had a 6-card Major (by mistake), played 3 NT and made it. Other pairs played 4S and went down. Is there ground to call Director on this? Thank you.

[kenrexford]

Only to brag.

There is no penalty. For that matter, some rare times better players will open 1NT or 2NT intentionally with a 6-card major.

[P_Marlowe]

No.

Your student got lucky, just make sure, he understands, that he got lucky.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[malem777]

kenrexford, P_Marlowe, thank you very much. I was almost sure about that but didn't want to argue worried that it would be too much in front of a person playing duplicate bridge for the first time. Too long since I took my director test

Thanks again!

[aguahombre]

Remember, Malem...Almost all regs about what is legal to do are about AGREEMENTS to do something. You didn't teach him to do that, he chose to do it. He didn't even try to show what he had done by pulling 3NT.

It wasn't even into the realm of a Psyche; and even if it were, nothing indicates you had a control or method to field it.

[mycroft]

If the opponents chose to call the TD, they have every right to, if they don't know the Laws, and are not trying to intimidate. It sure *looks* like an irregularity has occurred (and one might have, if the pair have an agreement that a 6-card Major is allowed. Okay, nobody has that agreement, but I've seen stupider!)

Now, if you're asking if there's grounds for the TD making a ruling other than "there's no misinformation here, the player just decided 1NT was the best description for this hand. Now, if you two decide to agree that this is correct in general, or you start to expect it from this partner, you're going to have to add that to your disclosure", probably not.

But even then, if both 3NT and 4♠ make 9 tricks without the "MI", then it's just a system win, just as if 3NT is making from my side, but down from partner's, because of the typical lead, and we get there the right way up because we're opening a weak NT.

Bad bridge wins sometimes. Sorry E-W.

[han]

kenrexford, on 2012-March-09, 08:04, said:

Only to brag.

There is no penalty. For that matter, some rare times better players will open 1NT or 2NT intentionally with a 6-card major.

Yes, I remember cherdano overcalling 1NT with a 6-card heart suit and a diamond void. He found out about halfway through the hand.

[HighLow21]

mycroft, on 2012-March-09, 11:20, said:

Bad bridge wins sometimes. Sorry E-W.

This is absolutely correct. The fortunate thing for all of us is the long run, during which time bad bridge loses. This does not change the reduction in my life expectancy when something like this happens, however.

[HighLow21]

kenrexford, on 2012-March-09, 08:04, said:

Only to brag.

There is no penalty. For that matter, some rare times better players will open 1NT or 2NT intentionally with a 6-card major.

Ken out of curiosity, when might be a good time to do so?

[olegru]

♠ AKQ432
♥ 105
♣ AJ
♣ Q75

1NT, anyone? - I opened.

Yes, you saw it right, my actual hand was:

♠ AKQ432
♥ 105
♦ -
♣ AQJ75

We got a very good score on the board, but friendly opponents did not think to summon a director. Idea to call a doctor discussed quite a while.

Sorry for off-topic

[mgoetze]

mycroft, on 2012-March-09, 11:20, said:

if the pair have an agreement that a 6-card Major is allowed. Okay, nobody has that agreement, but I've seen stupider!

Actually, just today I heard someone saying that he had told his mother to alert his 1NT openings when playing mixed events as "13-18 points, supposedly balanced, anywhere from 1 to 6 spades".

[malem777]

Thank you for all the replies, including off-topics

aguahombre, so far teaching that student not to open NT even with 5-card Major. I think it's better for players without experience, isn't it?

mycroft, sorry I am new to this forum, would like to know what is "MI"? Actually, player calling director was a certified ACBL director (that is a different topic probably)

HighLow21, and noone canceled Beginner's Luck, right? Hope, there are more things happening at the bridge table which increase your life expectancy

olegru, my students mix up Hearts and Diamonds all the time. Now I'll be prepared to situations like yours ))

[aguahombre]

re: opening 1NT with a 5 card major---this is something they will probably learn on their own, and not necessary to teach one way or the other early on.


They will figure it out when they keep having rebid problems because they are in between rebid ranges. And if they don't, you won't have bat your head against a wall with complications.

[Zelandakh]

malem777, on 2012-March-09, 21:23, said:

aguahombre, so far teaching that student not to open NT even with 5-card Major. I think it's better for players without experience, isn't it?

When I taught people how to play bridge I also taught them not to treat a hand with a 5 card major as balanced. This is probably more arguable in a strong NT context but I think having a clear distinction between balanced and unbalanced is helpful in almost any system as a beginner.

malem777, on 2012-March-09, 21:23, said:

mycroft, sorry I am new to this forum, would like to know what is "MI"? Actually, player calling director was a certified ACBL director (that is a different topic probably)

MI is misinformation. It refers to situations where the opponents have said something which is incorrect and that causes damage. Most commonly this is a response to a question about system or carding which does not provide the actual agreement.

malem777, on 2012-March-09, 21:23, said:

HighLow21, and noone canceled Beginner's Luck, right? Hope, there are more things happening at the bridge table which increase your life expectancy

Sometimes this is the sort of thing that gets a player hooked on bridge. Doing something a little strange and lucking out to a good score can act a bit like a gambler winning their first jackpot. The difficulty can be reigning that player in not to keep trying ill-disciplined things.

malem777, on 2012-March-09, 21:23, said:

olegru, my students mix up Hearts and Diamonds all the time. Now I'll be prepared to situations like yours ))

Not sure if you were serious with this but if anyone does have this problem then you can teach them to hold their cards in alternate colour sequence or even to try using 4 colour decks.

[kenrexford]

HighLow21, on 2012-March-09, 12:59, said:

Ken out of curiosity, when might be a good time to do so?

A hand where the value ends up being about the equivalent of a 16-HCP hand but where short honors make 1...3 of the major seem too much but 1...2 too little, and perhaps where opening the major, then 2♣, then something neat sounds bad too. Also, you need a partner with a sense of humor.


I don't know how to articulate it well, but I "know it when I see it," at least in my judgment.

[HighLow21]

kenrexford, on 2012-March-12, 14:22, said:

A hand where the value ends up being about the equivalent of a 16-HCP hand but where short honors make 1...3 of the major seem too much but 1...2 too little, and perhaps where opening the major, then 2♣, then something neat sounds bad too. Also, you need a partner with a sense of humor.


I don't know how to articulate it well, but I "know it when I see it," at least in my judgment.

I like that explanation and I was thinking along the same lines actually. In between a natural rebid of 2M and 3M, semi-balanced, lots of HCP in the short suits. I mean, I'd like to play that hand in NT much of the time and maybe the right way to get there is to bid it.

[bluejak]

HighLow21, on 2012-March-09, 12:58, said:

This is absolutely correct. The fortunate thing for all of us is the long run, during which time bad bridge loses. This does not change the reduction in my life expectancy when something like this happens, however.

The fortunate thing for all of us is the short run, during which time bad bridge sometimes wins. Otherwise the poorer players would stop playing, and where would we be then?

malem777, on 2012-March-09, 21:23, said:

mycroft, sorry I am new to this forum, would like to know what is "MI"? Actually, player calling director was a certified ACBL director (that is a different topic probably)

There are some forum abbreviations. Look at the pinned threads at the start of each of these four forums and you will find them there.

If I was playing against a novice playing his first duplicate it would not occur to me to call the TD [Director!] for anything unless it was my side who had gone wrong.

[blackshoe]

bluejak, on 2012-March-15, 18:01, said:

If I was playing against a novice playing his first duplicate it would not occur to me to call the TD [Director!] for anything unless it was my side who had gone wrong.

Somebody is going to have to be the first one to call the TD, sometime, when this novice is an opponent. How long do you wait? Will he ever learn the right way to do things?

[barmar]

blackshoe, on 2012-March-15, 20:12, said:

Somebody is going to have to be the first one to call the TD, sometime, when this novice is an opponent. How long do you wait? Will he ever learn the right way to do things?

Eventually he'll run into players who aren't as forgiving to newbies as bluejak. And in time, he'll stop being considered a novice, and most opponents will call the TD for his infractions.

There's no need for a hard and fast rule, it just happens naturally.

[mycroft]

Yes, but like psychic calls, the fact that this both happens and is normal, and isn't something to be aggrieved about, is something that needs to be taught in lessons, or in "introduction to duplicate". Because the longer people wait before it happens, the harder it will be for those people to understand "why is this wrong? We've always done that".