[JustaDummy]

ahydra, on 2012-March-09, 18:14, said:

I don't recall having seen many "cleverer-than-you" posts. Can you point me at one to show me what you mean?

“A jump to 4♠ is terrible. I like 3♦>4♦.” (Cleverer than me because there is no explanation of why 4♠ is terrible - that’s OK for folks who are in the know, but not for beginners. A simple explanation would have removed my criticism)

“We have a lucky agreement, which makes this one easy. 2NT for the fragment. Seems important to know whether we are mirrored in diamonds before we launch.” (Cleverer than me because I don’t know the language he/she is using - same argument as above).

And almost every other post that I referred to, in varying degrees.

But it’s no biggie. If BBO forums aren’t able to help at the basic level because things get too interesting at a higher level, I understand. But I just think that, for beginners (REAL beginners, if BBO actually believes its own hype), it would be helpful if someone in these posts would flag “Int” or “Adv” or something, so that I would know that this stuff is for absorbing later. You just cannot expect a beginner to differentiate! So as a rookie I’m left wondering what the hell to do about all this stuff.

I had hoped that a Rookie’s forum, moderated as such, would add that kind of annotation. I know the field is populated with volunteers, and the effort is not insignificant, but otherwise the field becomes overgrown with mushrooms.

[JustaDummy]

han, on 2012-March-09, 16:43, said:

This discussion is not basic at all. This just happened to be a very interesting hand from many perspectives, from beginners to experts.

How is it interesting to a beginner? How can a beginner see the play the same way that someone more experienced can see it? I'm sure that beginners like me can understand the bridge, given a chance and some hints, but is the bridge in this thread not obfuscated by the rhetoric?

Sorry to harp on about this, but I really think that this is important. It is certainly important to me. Does the lack of support to my post from other beginners here not tell you something? Maybe there are no real beginners here. Does BBO want that?

Don't misunderstand me - I know about the depth of expertise available in these forums, and I am painfully aware of my lack of knowledge here - but is that not the definition of a beginner?

I really welcome, and know that I really need, that level of expertise if I am to improve, but throwing me in at the deep end will probably result in yet another drowned rat.

[aguahombre]

Beginners and intermediates cover a wide spectrum of players. If, at any time. a term is used with which someone is unfamiliar I---and many posters--- would be happy to respond with a definition or a clarification via "Private Message"....accessed thru the user's profile.

It would make posts in the B/I forum itself quite combersome if we always gave definitions of everything ---and it might become boring as well.

[Antrax]

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-09, 18:03, said:

I get that. But I also get discouraged by wading through all the posts in this beginners' forum, trying to find something that I can understand and maybe use in a game.

Hi.
I can tell you I shared the exact same sentiment (and also expressed it) when I joined these forums about a year ago. My skill level at the time of joining was lower than what you describe, and my knowledge of the slang and conventions was similar to yours now. Two things to know:
a) You can always ask about what you don't understand, and someone will answer it. Often several someones and you'll have to figure out for yourself who among them makes more sense, or wait to see the outcome of their discussion, but for basic questions, you usually get one answer, and it's right. Moreover, this forum is moderated so nobody is going to make you feel bad, no matter how basic your question or poor your bidding/play.
b) If you stick with it for a couple of months, eventually you'll get the hang of it. With other forums, about a week of lurking is usually sufficient. With this one, a lot more, but eventually you'll learn which posters are worth having every word they type framed and which should be ignored, as well as the common abbreviations and bridge concepts.
Also, this thread: http://www.bridgebas...ations-wdp-etc/

Good luck.

[jillybean]

Hi, I don't have much to add to what has already been said but I should reiterate, ask lots of questions. This has meant I have had to swallow my pride and ask silly questions, several times on occasions. People are still answering my questions, noone is banned for asking too many / silly questions

Get a thick skin. There are a number of posters here who can come across as very abrasive but if can you overlook that, the advice they provide is good. There are also top class players who provide advice in a very kind and non humiliating manner so look out for those.

[JustaDummy]

Thanks all. Anthrax, I've bookmarked your link: some interesting bridge stuff in there amongst the BBO chat stuff. (Amongst? Does anyone use that these days? I'm showing my age…)

And I'm now all set for two months of lurking… but I can't help thinking that there ought to be a better way. I had hoped that a Rookies forum might have had legs - but maybe, as Aquahombre hinted, that would just be too boring. Not boring for any of us rookies, of course.

[aguahombre]

I guess that means you won't be taking me up on the offer to assist via PM if you have questions about jargon used in posts, or what certain terms refer to in context.

Apparently, it is more fun to pick one word (boring), parenthetically phrased, out of a whole post and dwell on it

[JustaDummy]

aguahombre, on 2012-March-10, 17:53, said:

I guess that means you won't be taking me up on the offer to assist via PM if you have questions about jargon used in posts, or what certain terms refer to in context.

Apparently, it is more fun to pick one word (boring), parenthetically phrased, out of a whole post and dwell on it

You misunderstand me. Firstly, I'm not actually having much fun here, nor do I seek it. This is more serious than just fun. You surely know that.

I'm really just trying to learn. But I'm absolutely not prepared to fire off PMs to everyone asking for clarifications, for two reasons:

1. I have too many questions. I really do not believe, despite the rhetoric, that I won't end up as a pariah after asking too many questions - I know that many of my questions can be answered by other resources than this forum, or by other BBO forums, or, fundamentally, by resources outside BBO, but what do I do if this specific forum prompts my questions? And I have MANY. Do you suggest that I fire off PMs in every occasion?

2. I am sure that I am not alone. So if I have a serious question, and decide to try to get an answer directly from a poster via PM, how does the resulting dialogue help any other noob who might just have exactly the same question?

PMs are absolutely NOT the answer, although I thank you for the offer. And it was you who stated that addressing basic meanings for noobs like me was probably going to get boring - which is exactly why I have suggested a NOOB forum where nothing is boring, and where folks like you who might try to assist (and I really hope that you would) would accept that the discussion might border on the dreary. But you still have the beginners/intermediates forum, right?

If you are really helpful, you will see the sense in that, and you might support the creation of such a forum.

[Antrax]

I urge you to start asking questions, and see whether or not you're getting answers you can understand. The level of answers is often dependent on the opening post - who made it and what level of question it is. So, reading others' threads might not be the most effective way of learning.
And I seriously doubt you'll beat me for "dumbest question" - I think my first one was what to respond to partner's 1♠ opener with something like ♠x ♥Qxxx ♦xxx ♣AJxxx when playing standard American

[MrAce]

JustaDummy, i agree with everything u said.

This topic (and lot more ) should not exist in B/I forums, including a lot of posts made by myself.

I wrote this in the past that people do not understand that "Beginner" means who just learnt or still learning the "ABC" of bridge, and "intermediate" is those who has completed the learning process of ABC and trying to perform those "ABC" but still uncomfortable.

I agree with you that this forum is full of things that are WAY beyond "ABC"

It has a lot to do with some of the sarcastic/negative/hostile attitude in other forums too. People (imo) started to use this forum as a harbour or shield to protect them from those who rarely contributes but very talented in poking. Because it doesnt matter how ridicilious or how bad an anaylse or a question is, u are supposed to not get bullied in this B/I forum. Dont get me wrong, i am probably one of them too from time to time. I will own my share of the guilt.

Also there is this "level" issue. Most people dont know exactly what their level is. We have advanced players who thinks or for being humble they pretend like B/I. We have real B/I members who thinks themselves worldclass but for being humble they will accept the bargain at expert level.

Just my opinion.

[SimonFa]

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-09, 16:34, said:

Wow! Thank you Mikeh. I have d/led your post for further study - but is this all basic? I worry about that. I don't want to spend more time studying than playing…

As I've only been for playing for 18 months or so I find this and the other forums here invaluable and that icludes A/E though I never venture comments. At first I was like you and seemed to spend more time researching the jargon and conventions than actually reading anything useful - I remember spending about 30 mins trying to find out what ATB meant! It was worth the effort though and I feel my game has come on so much faster than it world have done without it.

But then again I am very keen to learn and do read books and other bridge sites as well. Much as I like playing, 2-3 times a week in real world plus I probably play one GIB tourney a day, I reckon an hour on here has probably been worth 2-3 at the table, although that is swinging the other way now. The only time more valuable is sitting down with partner and discussing methods.

Whilst there may have been a few entertaining spats between the A/E players all, without exception, have been nothing but courteous and helpful to a fault, no matter how stupid or lowly the question, indeed Mike's answer above is typical. Where else could you get friendly advice from someone has just been part of the winning Camrose trophy team and another who was runner up in the Bermuda Bowl?

Regards,

Simon

[Statto]

deleted

[JustaDummy]

SimonFa, on 2012-March-11, 15:23, said:

I remember spending about 30 mins trying to find out what ATB meant!

Not "Across the Board" then, like in chess, but "Attribute The Blame?" (I found that in the link which Anthrax provided.) Does that say something about the mindset of some players?

Quote

… Mike's answer above is typical. Where else could you get friendly advice from someone has just been part of the winning Camrose trophy team and another who was runner up in the Bermuda Bowl?

As a newbie, I have no idea about the level of play of the contributors to this forum. I don't know who Mikeh is, or who Aguahombre is or anyone else, or what they do for bridge. I don't know what Camrose or the Bermuda Bowl is. Sorry if that is heretical, but it is a fact.

I'm actually quite astounded that players of that level spend any time here on this beginners / intermediates forum. Oh, wait, this isn't really a beginners / intermediates forum at all…

Which is the essence of my point! I was heartened to read the recent post by wyman:

http://www.bridgebas...true-beginners/

where he acknowledges this issue. And I'm too much of a beginner to know if there is such a thing as a Super Muppet Stayman. It is totally plausible. Maybe that's a convention, where, if the contract reaches Small Slam, Miss Piggy appears and beats the oppos about the nether regions with her handbag, screaming, "Hiii-Yah!." I wouldn't know.

But then, I'm afraid that wyman's thread went the way of many good ideas, with a leading light here (AFAIK) saying, "I think there is too much emphasis on the difference between intermediate and advanced, we can't define it well, and certainly can't tell people which they are. But I don't let that stop me from posting material I think someone might find useful in the b/i forum, if if that someone is an advanced player or a novice" which as far as I'm concerned completely misses the point.

The point is NOT about the difference between I and A, no matter how small that might be, but the difference between R (rookie) and B (beginner), which I assume, since I am a rookie, is huge according to my reading of the posts made in this B/I forum. And if someone in the establishment is unsure about the value of posting in the B/I forum because the subject matter might be A, then that someone has to rethink about what it is to be a beginner. So instead of worrying about whether or not a post is suitable for A or I, we should be getting down to my level, somehow, somewhere. Please.

But that won't happen here in B/I! We NEED another forum for Rookies. And then, maybe, the lurkers will come out of the woodwork and start enjoying the discussion around this wonderful game.

[jillybean]

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-13, 18:57, said:

I'm actually quite astounded that players of that level spend any time here on this beginners / intermediates forum. Oh, wait, this isn't really a beginners / intermediates forum at all…

This is a B/I forum and I am so grateful that the WC players do spend time to answer questions here.

Many have made a good point about the need for a newbie forum, the administrators are aware of it and so let them do their job.

I don't recall seeing you post any bridge related questions, maybe I am wrong. Why not try posting some questions here, stress that you are looking for a basic (sayc?) answer if that is what you are wanting and see what sort of responses you get. Some people do get off topic or introduce exotic treatments but I think you will very soon sort those out from the more standard replies. If you don't understand the answers, google the terms or ask for clarification.

[JustaDummy]

jillybean, on 2012-March-14, 00:18, said:

I don't recall seeing you post any bridge related questions, maybe I am wrong.

See post #10, several questions, answered in #11.

[SimonFa]

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-13, 18:57, said:

Not "Across the Board" then, like in chess, but "Attribute The Blame?" (I found that in the link which Anthrax provided.) Does that say something about the mindset of some players?

Not really. Bridge is a partnership game in most part and, as one member has in his sig block, searching for your mistakes is the only way to improve (I paraphrase). Therefore you need to know who made the mistake(s). ATB is a shorthand way of getting there.

OK, there are some cases where poster wants a stroke, but they are few and far betwenn from what I have seen.

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-13, 18:57, said:

As a newbie, I have no idea about the level of play of the contributors to this forum. I don't know who Mikeh is, or who Aguahombre is or anyone else, or what they do for bridge. I don't know what Camrose or the Bermuda Bowl is. Sorry if that is heretical, but it is a fact.

Fair point, which is why its a good idea to "lurk" and read the A/E forums, that way you know how to rate the answers you get when you do ask a question.

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-13, 18:57, said:

I'm actually quite astounded that players of that level spend any time here on this beginners / intermediates forum. Oh, wait, this isn't really a beginners / intermediates forum at all…

Really? I think its wonderful that these guys (I use the American gender neutral form of the word) are willing to spend their time sharing their knowledge and expertise, for free! I don't know how much a bridge teacher charges but I would be quite happy to drop an occasional donation it to a tip jar.

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-13, 18:57, said:

Which is the essence of my point! I was heartened to read the recent post by wyman:

http://www.bridgebas...true-beginners/

where he acknowledges this issue. And I'm too much of a beginner to know if there is such a thing as a Super Muppet Stayman. It is totally plausible. Maybe that's a convention, where, if the contract reaches Small Slam, Miss Piggy appears and beats the oppos about the nether regions with her handbag, screaming, "Hiii-Yah!." I wouldn't know.

But then, I'm afraid that wyman's thread went the way of many good ideas, with a leading light here (AFAIK) saying, "I think there is too much emphasis on the difference between intermediate and advanced, we can't define it well, and certainly can't tell people which they are. But I don't let that stop me from posting material I think someone might find useful in the b/i forum, if if that someone is an advanced player or a novice" which as far as I'm concerned completely misses the point.

I agree, Wyman made a very good point, that doesn't mean its the be all and end all of the discussion, which is why I put in my two-penne'th. It would be very boring if all you got was one post and nobody could raise differing opinions.

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-13, 18:57, said:

The point is NOT about the difference between I and A, no matter how small that might be, but the difference between R (rookie) and B (beginner), which I assume, since I am a rookie, is huge according to my reading of the posts made in this B/I forum. And if someone in the establishment is unsure about the value of posting in the B/I forum because the subject matter might be A, then that someone has to rethink about what it is to be a beginner. So instead of worrying about whether or not a post is suitable for A or I, we should be getting down to my level, somehow, somewhere. Please.

The problem comes back to definition again. As I said earlier, I've been playing 18 months and some of the people here have been playing for 40 or more years, does that make me a rookie or beginner? I don't know, which is why I suggested simple questions and advanced questions forums. I'm in a minority of one, so what? I'm entitled to my opinion.

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-13, 18:57, said:

But that won't happen here in B/I! We NEED another forum for Rookies. And then, maybe, the lurkers will come out of the woodwork and start enjoying the discussion around this wonderful game.

Maybe you have a point, but the absence shouldn't stop you asking any questions no matter how basic. I ask all sorts of questions here and I am sure some of them are in the rookie department but without fail I get very detailed answers well explained answers and if someone says ... 2and that's why Gazilli/Namyats/J2N was developed" ..I'll go off read up on those systems if I'm interested.

Granted, someone just saying "Namyats" isn't being helpful, but I haven't seen that happen.

The problem is that no matter how simple the question and explanation at some point you have to get in to more detail.

Regards,

Simon

[Zelandakh]

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-13, 18:57, said:

As a newbie, I have no idea about the level of play of the contributors to this forum. I don't know who Mikeh is, or who Aguahombre is or anyone else, or what they do for bridge. I don't know what Camrose or the Bermuda Bowl is. Sorry if that is heretical, but it is a fact.

I do not know agua either except through these forums but Mike (Hargreaves) is a Canadian international who was recently at the Bermuda Bowl. Talking of which, the BB is the most prestigious Teams event in bridge. Most would probably say it is the most prestigious event of any type. Another poster here (JLOGIC = Justin Lall) was part of the team that came second in the most recent BB. The Camrose is an event between the Home Nations of England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It is not of the same calibre as the BB but nonetheless quite important to those in the UK and Ireland and representing your country is always an honour.

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-13, 18:57, said:

I'm actually quite astounded that players of that level spend any time here on this beginners / intermediates forum. Oh, wait, this isn't really a beginners / intermediates forum at all…

I think everyone is astounded to be honest. For such top players to give their time freely is a marvel and a fabulous resource for the rest of us. They do not give their time to turn the B/I forum into an A/E forum but rather to give support and help to players starting out and/or looking to improve their game. This is something I applaud every day.

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-13, 18:57, said:

But then, I'm afraid that wyman's thread went the way of many good ideas, with a leading light here (AFAIK) saying, "I think there is too much emphasis on the difference between intermediate and advanced, we can't define it well, and certainly can't tell people which they are. But I don't let that stop me from posting material I think someone might find useful in the b/i forum, if if that someone is an advanced player or a novice" which as far as I'm concerned completely misses the point.

Perhaps I was reading a different thread but I saw a lot of support there for separating out the level-based forums into something like N/B, I/A and E. I am personally not so sure we need an I/A forum as well as General + Interesting Hands but renaming B/I to N/B is almost certainly an idea being considered by the Admins at the moment.

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-13, 18:57, said:

The point is NOT about the difference between I and A, no matter how small that might be, but the difference between R (rookie) and B (beginner), which I assume, since I am a rookie, is huge according to my reading of the posts made in this B/I forum. And if someone in the establishment is unsure about the value of posting in the B/I forum because the subject matter might be A, then that someone has to rethink about what it is to be a beginner. So instead of worrying about whether or not a post is suitable for A or I, we should be getting down to my level, somehow, somewhere. Please.

The point is to provide answers that are of the correct level for the person asking the question. I would hope that when I give an answer to you that I am able to keep it relatively simple. On the other hand, if Don asks a question in B/I then I feel free to go into great detail about system which would otherwise be wrong for the forum. If Simon asks a question then providing some suggestions for more advanced treatments (without full details) is appropriate. Yes this means that the B/I forum contains a lot of material unsuitable for a Novice. I think I am right in saying that everyone here would be more than happy to answer Novice questions in such threads to allow them to be enjoyed by a wider audience.

The alternative is for our intermediates like Simon and to stop posting in B/I but move into General, IH (or a new I/A). If that encourages more Novices to post then it is surely a good thing. If it makes the B/I forum a graveyard (and therefore the best players stop reading it) then it will be a very bad thing. There was a time when the B/I forum was a little like that. Ben, in particular, has worked hard to make this forum the thriving place it currently is. I think it needs some careful consideration as to what would be best; in particular I feel quite strongly that the bottom end of Internediate is appropriate for B/I because without it there are not enough threads to sustain it.

[32519]

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-13, 18:57, said:

But that won't happen here in B/I! We NEED another forum for Rookies. And then, maybe, the lurkers will come out of the woodwork and start enjoying the discussion around this wonderful game.

Did someone mention lurkers?

The BBO Member List currently contains 609 pages of members. With 20 members per page, that totals 12180 members.

Out of this total, the first 205 pages (ranking the members by the number of posts made) contain at least 1 post made by the member. That equates to 4100 or 33,7% of the members who were active at least once.

Members who have made 10+ posts, make up the first 56 pages. That equates to 1120 or 9,2 % of the members.

The first 23 pages contain the members who have made 100+ posts. That equates to 460 or 3,8%.

So what do we make of these stats?

[JustaDummy]

Apologies to Quartic for the unintentional hijack of his thread. It seems to now be running in parallel with one started by wyman:

http://www.bridgebas...true-beginners/

and I'm now finding myself torn between responding here or there.

@ Admins, is it possible to move relevant posts from here into wyman's thread where they really belong?

[Quartic]

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-15, 07:58, said:

Apologies to Quartic for the unintentional hijack of his thread. It seems to now be running in parallel with one started by wyman:

http://www.bridgebas...true-beginners/

and I'm now finding myself torn between responding here or there.

@ Admins, is it possible to move relevant posts from here into wyman's thread where they really belong?

No problem - my original question has been well answered, and I'm finding this discussion rather interesting too. Moving some posts probably does make sense though.