[SimonFa]

I used to have a fairly clear idea on 2C opening bids but the debate in other forums has left me with a wider margin of grey areas.

This hand is from a practice session with GIB and falls slap bang in the middle of my grey area if not GIB's. No real suit, a bit too strong for 2NT even if we are happy with the shape.

Imps, W v W, partner deals and passes, ops silent throughout:

A
AQ64
A763
AKQ8

If you open 2C partner bids 2D. If you then bid 2NT it comes as no surprise that partner transfers to Spades.

Nobody opened 2NT but I assume you would get the same transfer.

In either case 3NT over the transfer is a super accept and partner will put you back in to 4S.

I've no idea what other responses you would get to a different opening bid.

Quo vadis?

Regards,

Simon

PS In the real world I play 2D as 4+HCP and 2H as 3- HCP responses to 2C which would have been helpful in this hand. Over 2D I would probably just go to 3NT as partner is a passed hand and let him worry about pushing for the slam.

Spoiler

Partner's hand
KJ643
K8
9
T7632

6NT was bid and made at a couple of tables

[helene_t]

Mike Lawrence says that hands with a stiff ace should often be treated as balanced.

I think that's right. If partner has six spades, they might be useless in an nt contract since the suit blocks. If partner has five he will suggest 3NT.

It is more difficult with a small doubleton. But even then I would treat the hand as balanced. Not with 21 point and a stiff major. But otherwise I would.

[fuburules3]

I would probably bid 2C then 2NT. If I do this, I can't later decide to change my mind when partner transfers. We won't play in spades over NT unless partner has six spades in which case it can't be horrible.

[32519]

My version of the Multi copes with these hand types as follows:

The 4441 hand pattern and 18-24 HCP has been removed from my Multi 2♦ opening (Why 18 HCP and not 17 as the regular Multi advertises? Answer: My 1NT opening bid = 15-17 HCP balanced or semi-balanced. With a 4441 hand pattern and 17 HCP, I am quite happy to open 1m and rebid 1NT if the singleton is ♠ and partner replies 1♠ over my 1m). The 4441 17 HCP hand falls within my 1NT range.

Here’s my basic idea:
1.) Remove the 4441 option from your Multi 2♦ opening bid.
2.) The strong balanced 20-22 HCP option is retained.
3.) My 2♣ opening bid is either –
....a) 20+ Unbalanced,
....b) 23+ Balanced, or
....c) 18-24 HCP and the 4441 hand pattern

This is my continuation bidding sequence after a 2♣ opening –
Inevitably partner responds 2♦ as “waiting”
2NT rebid = 4441 hand pattern 18-24 HCP
The continuation structure after 2NT looks like this:
3♣ = terrible hand (I use 0-5 HCP. This can be adjusted according to partnership agreement). Subsequent to the 3♣ bid, both partners now start bidding 4-card suits up the line in search of a fit. Finding a 4-4 fit won’t always be possible. You will have plenty of hands where responder will make the decision to signoff in a 4-3 fit fearing getting to the 4-level with a really bad hand. As soon as opener bypasses any suit, responder knows immediately that that is the suit with the singleton.
3♦ = 6+ HCP game force whenever opener holds 19+ (18?) HCP. If opener’s singleton is a major he bids the singleton on level 3. If opener’s singleton is a minor, the first choice would be to bid 3NT (this may quite easily be the last game contract which can make). Responders own holding in the minor suits will decide whether 3NT gets passed or not.
After 3NT by opener, the contract can still be played with the strong hand hidden in 4 of a major. You can choose to use Texas or SA Texas for opener to transfer into your 4-card major.

Similarly when opener has bid 3♥/3♠ as the singleton. If responder has 4-cards in the other major you can transfer into it (again either Texas or SA Texas).

The big downside with this approach is this: With a bust hand, bidding 4-card suits up the line, it can and will happen that the strong hand is exposed on the table.

[Zelandakh]

Strong 3-suiters are hard. This is just the way it is. For this reason I have had a gadget bid in most of the systems I have played seriously to handle them when they come up. Luckily they are also rare.

I think the best with this hand is to treat it as balanced. Accept the transfer and if partner bids 4♠ you are in a 6-1 fit. It could be worse and there is no guarantee that 3NT is going to be any better. Indeed if there is no outside entry 4♠ rates to be considerably better than 3NT.

If you really cannot stomach bidding NT with a singleton then the alternatives would be 2♣ followed by 3♣ or just opening 1♦. If none of these appeal then the next option is to learn a gadget and convince your partners.

[Cyberyeti]

2♣-2♦-2N-3♥-3♠-4♣-4♦(keycard in ♣)-4♥(0)-4N(tell me more)-5♥(K♥)-5N(got another K or Q♥?)-6♠(yes K♠)-7♣

Worst hand partner can have is Kxxxx, K, xx, xxxxx which is a reasonable grand, and he could have better or longer clubs.

[mikeh]

We just finished a thread in which a beginner expressed his disappointment that the posts in this thread are aimed way above beginner level, and what do we get in response to this question? A complex multi method, kickback, and a suggestion that opener bid 2♣ and then make a natural, forcing bid in a 4 card minor

To the OP:

Powerful 4441 hands are a 'hole' in natural bidding methods. The Blue Team invented, as part of their 'Roman' system, a gadget known as Roman 2♦, which showed 17+ and any 4441.

Some lesser players perverted this into something called mini-roman, where it was used with normal opening bids and 4441 shape. However, normal opening hands can bid 4441 hands with very little difficulty so this gadget has never been popular with good players.

Strong Roman comes up so infrequently that it essentially removes the 2♦ bid from your bidding method most of the time, and that is usually viewed as too high a cost. Some versions of the multi 2♦ opener include strong 4441 hands as one of the 'multiple' meanings for the bid, but this also comes at a cost. When, as is usually the case, the multi includes weak 2♥ and 2♠ hands, it is often very useful for responder to preempt when weak with a fit for both majors, but that becomes problematic when responder has to cater to the possibility that opener has 17+ 4441 rather than a weak two bid.

So most players simply accept that their bidding is going to be imprecise when they hold this shape, and will decide on a hand-by-hand basis which distortion is probably best.

In this case, I would be thankful that my stiff is a high honour, since it increases the chances that I will get away with describing this hand as balanced.

Note that 4441 hands generally play relatively badly compared to most other shapes, so I tend to be a little on the conservative side with this shape. Having said that, this is a full 23, loaded with controls, which factor tends to make me aggressive, so I think the controls and the shape balance each other out.

I would open 2♣ and rebid 2N, showing 22-23 balanced.

When partner transfers, we have zero choice....we bid 3♠ in tempo....we will have anticipated this when we opened, so there is no need to hestitate.

I haven't yet looked at the spoiler.

Edit: having looked at the spoiler, opener's hand grows up immensely once responder shows clubs. Responder has gone out of his way to show a suit that is headed by no more than a Jack.....he has suggested playing 5♣ if we fit clubs and don't fit spades....and my hand is HUGE now. Yes, 4441 hands play badly, but partner isn't 4441 It is unlikely that he has bid a 4 card club suit....if he has, then he has substantial extras. The odds are very high that he has 5 clubs. That gives him 10 black cards......and he has some values! Our problem is that we can't really take control here.

4N is not blackwood: 4N is what you would bid with, say, Ax AKJx KQ10x KQx: denies a fit for either suit and promises both reds solidly stopped.

It is possible to play 4♦ as keycard, but I wouldn't expect that (nor recommend it) in the B/I forum. Kickback is a powerful method, but prone to disaster without detailed agreements and practice. For example, in my partnerships, 4♦ would be keycard in both spades and clubs.

Absent sophisticated methods, Opener has to make do.

We know that slam is virtually laydown if he holds 10 black cards and enough hcp to bid as he has. Opposite as little as Kxxxx xx x J10xxx, it has great play. My choice over 4♣ is a pragmatic jump to 6♣. Partner will work out that I hold a maximum with 4+ clubs and lots of Aces. I don't see much hope of partner being able to bid grand on a lot of hands where grand is cold, but he'd be able to move with lots of hcp.

[Fluffy]

4441 strong is balanced, and it doesn't matter wich suit or what you have in the stiff, bidding any other way just works terribly so go for the balanced approach. singleton and doubleton aren't that different, but 5 card and 4 cards really are.


On the hand you gave I see no problem, partner won't bid 4♠ with a 5 spades, even she shouldn't. If you super acepted you have found your mistake.

[Zelandakh]

mikeh, on 2012-March-13, 08:59, said:

I haven't yet looked at the spoiler.

I did not look at (or even notice) the spoiler either. You probably think this is why I suggested...

mikeh, on 2012-March-13, 08:59, said:

We just finished a thread in which a beginner expressed his disappointment that the posts in this thread are aimed way above beginner level, and what do we get in response to this question? A complex multi method, kickback, and a suggestion that opener bid 2♣ and then make a natural, forcing bid in a 4 card minor

If you read my ! post you will see that I suggested treating the hand as balanced. I mentioned the possibility of opening 2♣ and rebidding the 4 card minor if that approach was deemed too unpalatable. For example, if you turn the ♠A into a small one and change small cards to ♦KQ and ♣J then I would expect some votes for 2♣ followed by 3♣ on an expert panel. There would also be votes for 2♣ followed by 2♥ which tends to cause a lot more headaches unless you really know what you are doing. Do you really think that showing the best alternatives to highlight why swallowing the balanced pill is best is unsuitable for B/I? We have also had comments not to dumb down B/I answers too much, ya know. I specifically did not go into what gadget options there are available since this is B/I; suffice to say that there are better options than a Roman 2♦ opening and also (imho) better options than bundling these hands into a multi.

mikeh, on 2012-March-13, 08:59, said:

To the OP:
<snip>

Aside from this mini-rant I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

[nigel_k]

I will open at the one level with quite strong hands if 5431 or similar flexible shape. The problem with a 4441 like this is that you have no rebid because any jump or reverse will show five cards in the suit opened. I suppose you could open 1♣ and reverse if partner bids 1♠, hoping the clubs are good enough if partner insists on them.

But I would just treat this as balanced. I am not actually that worried when partner transfers to spades. He will usually bid 3NT next and if he wants to play 4♠ he will have a six card suit and 4♠ will often be better than 3NT.