[chalks]

I'm specifically looking for advice on how to tell if a double is takeout, negative, or penalties (or lead directing?). Are there any general rules of thumb? Obviously this is something that has to be discussed in depth in a partnership, but for general online play when with random people, I'd like to be able to get it right most of the time.

I imagine this varies somewhat depending on system, so let's just stick with SAYC for now.

[Antrax]

A double of 1 of a suit bids or weak 2/3 bids is for takeout. Doubles of 1NT openings are often for penalty (as conventional doubles require discussion). Anything else is difficult to say with a certainty with a pickup partner.

[nigel_k]

My general rule is that the first time we double them in a natural suit bid, that double is for takeout. If we later double them again in the same suit (i.e. they raise or rebid) that is still takeout, but a subsequent double of a different suit is penalty.

There are a number of exceptions, e.g.

After we have redoubled, doubles are penalty
In a forcing pass situation, double is penalty
When we have agreed a suit (or effective set our trump suit) double is penalty
Double by preemptors partner is penalty
If it goes 1x-P-1NT-X, that is for takeout

There are other exceptions, including a quite common one where double is penalty if the auction just sounds like it should be and you think partner will understand.

[mgoetze]

chalks, on 2012-March-14, 11:50, said:

Are there any general rules of thumb?

I've tried and more or less failed.

http://www.bridgebas...enalty-doubles/

[Cthulhu D]

chalks, on 2012-March-14, 11:50, said:

I'm specifically looking for advice on how to tell if a double is takeout, negative, or penalties (or lead directing?). Are there any general rules of thumb? Obviously this is something that has to be discussed in depth in a partnership, but for general online play when with random people, I'd like to be able to get it right most of the time.

I imagine this varies somewhat depending on system, so let's just stick with SAYC for now.

The key is double is a multi meaning flexible bid that means whatever it needs to mean at the time. This means it's very hard to define, and I like mgoetze's approach of defining some rules. More conservative players seem to think that double is penalties much more often so adjust expectations. I think you can be simpler when starting out to, lots of people would play that 1NT - (P) - 3NT - (X) calls for a particular lead or whatever but as you and I are both beginners we don't need that . Anyway the rules I play with one partner.

Doubles are either: Takeout, Values, Negative, Lead directing or Penalty

A) If you're not sure, or it's close, or it's not discussed, double is for takeout.
B) All doubles on the first round are for takeout or negative. Always. No exceptions.
C) If I've opened the bidding, all my doubles are takeout until we find a fit (see E)
D) If partner opened the bidding, my doubles are negative.
E) Doubles are for penalty only when we have found a fit, or the auction was uncontested to atleast the three level.
F) Doubles of NT bids, natural or artificial, always show values
G) If it's 'our hand' doubles of artificial bids just say 'good hand here partner.' If it's their hand, double says 'lead this plz.'

These rules are superceeded if we have a specific agreement, e.g. your defence to 1NT may be an exception, but only by specific agreement, we play support doubles after (1H) - 1S - (2C) - Double here is 3 card spade support.. but that's still to be taken out!

[BunnyGo]

One rule of thumb, if you or partner have already made a penalty double, or passed a conventional double to convert it for penalty then all future doubles are penalty no matter what they'd be otherwise.

[Zelandakh]

Some suggested basic principles for beginners:-

A double is for take-out unless:
1. partner has made a natural NT bid or preempted (Logic: partner's hand type and strength is known so we do not need a take-out double)
or
2. we have shown a fit (Logic: if we have a fit then we do not need a take-out double)
or
3. we had a previous opportunity to double this suit (Logic: we could already have made a take-out double)
or
4. the bid being doubled is a NT bid, artificial, or a suit bid of 4♠ or higher (Logic: a NT bid can be penalised on raw power, an artificial bid on shape, higher bids are more open to being penalised than lower ones)
or
5. 3 (or 4) suits have been shown (Logic: no suits remain to show via a take-out double)
or
6. we have previously made a penalty double or redouble (Logic: they are running, we are hunting)

It will not take long to learn that these (mostly traditional) rules are not optimal. You can then start adding additional take-out doubles to the mix, along with perhaps some more fancy doubles. Some modern players even play almost all doubles as something other than penalty. That should tell you that the "logic" is not necessarily to be taken for granted and there are other ways of looking at these things. Nonetheless the above is a reasonable starting point for discussion with a regular partner.