[jillybean]

Vampyr, on 2012-June-07, 22:22, said:

The original director wondered this as well; she mentioned the incident when we were discussing female directors arriving at the table and being asked to send over a proper director. Apparently the passing director was very junior to her too.

LOL really, and the players are allowed to do this?

[Vampyr]

jillybean, on 2012-June-07, 22:36, said:

LOL really, and the players are allowed to do this?

Can you think of a way to prevent it?

[jillybean]

Apply the largest penalty possible, how about

LAW 74 - CONDUCT AND ETIQUETTE

A. Proper Attitude
1. A player should maintain a courteous attitude at
all times.

B. Etiquette
5. summoning and addressing the Director in a manner
discourteous to him or to other contestants.


LAW 90 -PROCEDURAL PENALTIES
B8. failure to comply promptly with tournament
regulations or with instructions of the Director.

[Vampyr]

jillybean, on 2012-June-07, 23:56, said:

Apply the largest penalty possible, how about

All very nice, but useless until after the fact.

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2012-June-08, 03:59, said:

All very nice, but useless until after the fact.

Since no law can actually "prevent" anything, the best you can hope for is punishment that serves to discourage.

What I think Jilly really meant by her question was whether the request for another TD is one that could ever be reasonable and granted.

[gnasher]

If you're recevied a clearly illegal ruling, and you've exhausted more normal routes such as looking surprised, exchanging glances with your opponents, asking the TD to read out the relevant Law, suggesting that he consult a colleague, etc, I think it's OK to discreetly ask a more senior TD to get involved. That can seem less confrontational than appealing - in my experience the TDs that give bad rulings are also the ones who take appeals personally.

[pran]

gnasher, on 2012-June-08, 11:16, said:

If you're recevied a clearly illegal ruling, and you've exhausted more normal routes such as looking surprised, exchanging glances with your opponents, asking the TD to read out the relevant Law, suggesting that he consult a colleague, etc, I think it's OK to discreetly ask a more senior TD to get involved. That can seem less confrontational than appealing - in my experience the TDs that give bad rulings are also the ones who take appeals personally.

In such cases I think the player (after in vain asking the TD to read out the relevant law) should make it quite clear that the ruling is about to be appealed, but maybe the TD might first prefer to consult some other TD?

[barmar]

The earlier post said "female directors arriving at the table and being asked to send over a proper director". This sounds like the request was made before there was even a ruling.

Do things like this really happen these days in western countries? I could imagine it happening in some Arab countries, where women are still treated as second-class citizens (do they even allow them to be directors?), but I'd be shocked if I ever saw someone dismiss a female director just due to her sex in a developed country.

[blackshoe]

I would expect any reasonably competent director to be able to handle that kind of crap. I do agree that it shouldn't happen. I've seen it once, and it had nothing to do with a director being female. Club game, playing director, teams. Director call by a member of the team opposing the playing director's team, at the other table (so the TD hadn't seen the boards yet). TD asked another player, who was in theory a qualified TD but hadn't directed in some time, to take the call. The player who called for a TD insisted repeatedly, in a loud voice*, on a "real" director. The funny thing is, the playing TD in this game was and is the least competent practicing director in the area.

* to the extent that he broke my concentration (on the other side of the room), causing me to blow the 3NT contract I was playing.

[jhenrikj]

2 years ago our CTD in the Swedish summer festival was called to the table to handle a call out of rotation. When he reached for the lawbook in his pocket the little old lady told him that he better go get another director who knows things without having to use the book ;=)

[Fluffy]

bluejak, on 2012-June-07, 09:24, said:

One of the growing problems in bridge in the UK is that when declarer leads from the wrong hand [including just calling for a card from dummy] dummy points it out, which is illegal, and then declarer says "Sorry" and leads from the other hand.

Happens in Spain as well, one of my partners has the ability to cover any card that is bad for us, while rejecting any that would suit us before I can make anything.

[bluejak]

dburn, on 2012-June-07, 14:44, said:

I don't understand this at all. If declarer won the heart lead with the singleton ace in dummy, then declarer really was in dummy and the spade from dummy was not a lead out of turn. Perhaps it was not the card declarer meant to play, but...

Sorry if I was not clear, but as pointed out I mean Axx opposite x.

gnasher, on 2012-June-08, 11:16, said:

If you're recevied a clearly illegal ruling, and you've exhausted more normal routes such as looking surprised, exchanging glances with your opponents, asking the TD to read out the relevant Law, suggesting that he consult a colleague, etc, I think it's OK to discreetly ask a more senior TD to get involved. That can seem less confrontational than appealing - in my experience the TDs that give bad rulings are also the ones who take appeals personally.

The problem comes with players - much rarer now - who assume any male TD is senior to any female TD.

barmar, on 2012-June-09, 22:36, said:

Do things like this really happen these days in western countries? I could imagine it happening in some Arab countries, where women are still treated as second-class citizens (do they even allow them to be directors?), but I'd be shocked if I ever saw someone dismiss a female director just due to her sex in a developed country.

Would you indeed? All the female TDs I know - and I am married to one - have had this happen from time to time, including my friend whose name escapes me for a moment but is on the WBFLC and is one of the world's top TDs.

<growl> <growl> <growl> Why can I not remember?

[sfi]

dburn, on 2012-June-07, 14:44, said:

My own practice after declarer leads from the wrong hand and I am on the wrong hand's left is: if I know that it is in the defenders' best interests to accept the lead I play a card; if not, I do nothing until partner has had a chance to ask declarer to lead from the correct hand or to indicate that he accepts the lead from the wrong one.

Why not just point out the irregularity? That action doesn't by itself force your side into a position of accepting it or not, and now everyone knows the reason for any break in tempo.

[blackshoe]

Joan Gerard?

[bluejak]

blackshoe, on 2012-June-12, 08:57, said:

Joan Gerard?

No, lad. While she is a friend ........

Dutch. Someone remind me.

[gnasher]

bluejak, on 2012-June-12, 08:59, said:

No, lad. While she is a friend ........

Dutch. Someone remind me.

Jeanne van den Meiracker?

[blackshoe]

According to the WBF website, the only person from the Netherlands on the WBFLC is Ton Kooljman, and the only woman is Joan Gerard.

Also according to the site, Jeanne van den MEIRACKER, from the Netherlands, was on the WBFLC from 2004 to 2010.

[Vampyr]

sfi, on 2012-June-12, 08:02, said:

Why not just point out the irregularity? That action doesn't by itself force your side into a position of accepting it or not, and now everyone knows the reason for any break in tempo.

This sounds like a good idea in principle, but the problem, I think, is that it might be hard to do this without it looking like you are consulting partner. You tell the player that he is in the wrong hand, he inevitably attempts a lead from the correct hand, you now say, sorry we haven't decided whether to accept the original lead...

[blackshoe]

If you anticipate that you may need the director, perhaps "you're in <the other hand>, I think we need the director", and then you call him. Now taking any action is an infraction. I think that any time you point out an irregularity, you should anticipate that you may need the director.

[bluejak]

gnasher, on 2012-June-12, 09:03, said:

Jeanne van den Meiracker?

Exactly.

blackshoe, on 2012-June-12, 09:08, said:

According to the WBF website, the only person from the Netherlands on the WBFLC is Ton Kooljman, and the only woman is Joan Gerard.

Also according to the site, Jeanne van den MEIRACKER, from the Netherlands, was on the WBFLC from 2004 to 2010.

So I was close.

Vampyr, on 2012-June-12, 09:13, said:

This sounds like a good idea in principle, but the problem, I think, is that it might be hard to do this without it looking like you are consulting partner. You tell the player that he is in the wrong hand, he inevitably attempts a lead from the correct hand, you now say, sorry we haven't decided whether to accept the original lead...

Tough. If players do the wrong thing then they should not invariably expect nothing to go wrong.

But pointing it out in a suitable way is a good thing - see last post.