[Cyberyeti]

barmar, on 2012-July-25, 04:06, said:

Yet his partner did bid 3NT. So as others have said, this hinges on whether they have a special agreement that 3NT is artificial after a Bergen raise. If not, he has to allow that his partner has chosen to play 3NT knowing about the fit. That would make pass an LA, and since the UI suggests bidding we would have to adjust.

If no specific agreement, the suggestion would be 5(332)/54?? with a double heart stop and I almost never want to play 3N opposite that as it's very unlikely that it's right. If my raise is "3 or 4 ♠" I would bid 4♠ if I had 4 almost without looking at the rest of my hand (4 hearts would put me off).

[mycroft]

• Unlike Wyman, I find that nobody knows which way up "real" as opposed to "inverted" Bergen is (I know I certainly don't, I just know which way I play it). Or more particularly, I find that everybody "knows" which way real Bergen goes, but about half have it backwards from the other half! I *always* ask the range at the relevant time, as player or TD (or prospective partner). Frequently I'm surprised. And sometimes people play "modified Bergen" - for instance, me (playing Precision, so 3♣ shows our "limit raise" (defined as "go on a 1950's Goren opener"), and 3♦ shows the "go only on a supermax" hand. Point count? What point count?).
  
• Yes, if in a real Bergen auction for this pair, 3NT is some sort of artificial slam try (it is with me whenever I play it), then passing 3NT is auto-no. *However*, it's not an auto-4♠, either. If 3♣ is 8-10, and it's Serious 3NT, and we play 1st and 2nd cuebids, 4♣ is clearly a LA, and 4♠ is demonstrably suggested over it. However, here 4♣ will likely get 4♥ (scramble, looking for a place to play), then 4♠ (we're off two diamond tricks). So I don't think we're going anywhere (but we have to check. What if they play "strong hand shows 1st, weak hand shows 1st and 2nd"?)
  
• The hand is interesting (if 3NT could be "to play"), as the ♥KQx makes life really difficult. What kind of a heart stopper can partner have to want to suggest 3NT with a known 9-card fit when I have that suit, and be right? With JTx Ax in the reds, if passing 3NT is possible, that's the hand to do it - or Q9x Kx, say.
  
• I don't see the scoring. At IMP scoring, I'm never passing 3NT, not with 9-card fit and a ruffing value (if it's only an 8-card fit, I *still* want the extra ruff or two). At MPs, it's a tougher call. I'd pull at the "table in East's mind" (where partner Alerted and explained my 3♣ call as a 8-10 with 4 trump), because the small doubleton diamond still looks like it's going to generate a ruff unavailable in 3NT, and 3NT is *never* a command, always a suggestion, with a major fit. All of this with a "3NT is natural" agreement over their real Bergen auction. But that's not a ruling, that's just a player in the poll.

I'm agreeing with everybody about the UI generation path - clear UI, demonstrable more successful alternative. I'm just discussing some of the things (most of which I know are repeats) that go into "what are the LAs?"

[TimG]

I know one hand does not prove anything (and this hand may be a bad example anyway), but absent specific agreement about 3N, I would expect a source of tricks, something like:

AKJxxx
JTxx
Ax
A

In which case west might think 9 tricks in NT could be easier than 10 in spades. It is sort of hard to construct such a hand with East holding ♥KQx, but this is the sort of hand I'd expect for 3N.

[Zelandakh]

TimG, on 2012-July-26, 06:34, said:

I know one hand does not prove anything (and this hand may be a bad example anyway),

That is certainly a bad example if you wanted to use it to suggest East should pass 3NT.

[TimG]

Zelandakh, on 2012-July-26, 07:55, said:

That is certainly a bad example if you wanted to use it to suggest East should pass 3NT.

Nope, I'm just saying what I think West's hand should look like. I agree that if this is the construction East comes up with, he'd want to pull to 4♠.

You are right, my choice of "prove" did make it sound like I was using it as an example of a hand where East would want to pass 3NT. Poor choice on my part.

[barmar]

I think Zelandakh's point was that if East is picturing a hand like that in West, he should pull to 6♠.

[TimG]

barmar, on 2012-July-26, 18:31, said:

I think Zelandakh's point was that if East is picturing a hand like that in West, he should pull to 6♠.

Well, ♥A and a ruff are pretty likely against 6♠.