Help
EBU
Can you please help to clarify some scoring problems we are encounting. Also some other problems regarding scoring that do occasionally occur.
1. Who has the overall authority for scoring an event. The Director or the Scorer? Sometimes the same person does both jobs so there is no problem but what happens if they are different people? Who decides if a procedural penalty is to be given and what it is?
2. This happened recently. The board was played but North did not score the result on the traveller. Do both pairs get an Average minus? E/W are also guilty of not checking the score. Should there be a procedural penalty? What would it be? In this particualr incident the Scorer knew that West always kept a score card. When contacted by 'phone he said it was +110 to North (his side). The E and W pairs were contacted but they could not remember the result.
Should the Scorer be contacting players to find out what the score was or is there a standard procedure that must be followed in cases like this?
Page 1 of 1
Scoring problem
#2
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,690
- Joined: 2006-April-17
- Gender:Male
- Location:Rochester, NY
Posted 2012-August-04, 09:50
I'm not as familiar with EBU club scoring procedures as an EBU TD would be, so I may be wrong about some of this, but
1. The Director has overall authority for scoring an event. See Law 81, in particular Law 81C8. The Director is responsible for assigning procedural penalties (PPs), not the scorer (Law 81C4). While a Director might delegate the authority to assign PPs to a scorer, I would be surprised if that's done.
2. Both NS and EW have committed irregularities not scoring and not checking. Ruling on this is the purview of the Director, not the scorer (Law 82A). AFAICS (after consulting the White Book) there is no regulation covering this situation from the scorer's viewpoint, so it seems to me what the scorer should do is turn it over to the Director, and what the Director should do is 1) attempt to determine the facts, the table score obtained (see Law 84). If he cannot determine the actual table score, he still must make a ruling (Law 85). In this case, I would rule that in the absence of a score, both pairs being directly at fault (Law 12C2), both pairs get Average minus. I suppose one could argue that both pairs are partly at fault (Average to both) or NS is directly at fault and EW partly at fault (A- for NS, A for EW, although this option is unpalatable to me, and almost certainly so to NS). The White Book, at 148.1, suggest that this offense should result in a PP(Warning), to both sides IMO, for a first or second offense, and a standard PP in MPs (10% of a top) for later offenses. Again, the award of PPs and the amount of them in MPs is the purview of the Director, not the scorer. BTW, if the TD is satisfied that he has determined the score (+110 to NS in this case, apparently), he should award that score, not an artificial one.
3. I see no problem with the scorer contacting players, although technically this is part of the TD's job in determining the facts.
4. Technically, the Scorer is an assistant to the TD assigned by the TO (Law 80B2{g}) or the TD (81D). A TO (a club, for example) might write regulations covering the scorer's duties and powers, or rely on the NBO's regulations, or the laws.
5. The most pertinent sections of the White Book are 12 (in particular 12.5), 78, 80, 81-90, 131 and 148. There may be others as well.
1. The Director has overall authority for scoring an event. See Law 81, in particular Law 81C8. The Director is responsible for assigning procedural penalties (PPs), not the scorer (Law 81C4). While a Director might delegate the authority to assign PPs to a scorer, I would be surprised if that's done.
2. Both NS and EW have committed irregularities not scoring and not checking. Ruling on this is the purview of the Director, not the scorer (Law 82A). AFAICS (after consulting the White Book) there is no regulation covering this situation from the scorer's viewpoint, so it seems to me what the scorer should do is turn it over to the Director, and what the Director should do is 1) attempt to determine the facts, the table score obtained (see Law 84). If he cannot determine the actual table score, he still must make a ruling (Law 85). In this case, I would rule that in the absence of a score, both pairs being directly at fault (Law 12C2), both pairs get Average minus. I suppose one could argue that both pairs are partly at fault (Average to both) or NS is directly at fault and EW partly at fault (A- for NS, A for EW, although this option is unpalatable to me, and almost certainly so to NS). The White Book, at 148.1, suggest that this offense should result in a PP(Warning), to both sides IMO, for a first or second offense, and a standard PP in MPs (10% of a top) for later offenses. Again, the award of PPs and the amount of them in MPs is the purview of the Director, not the scorer. BTW, if the TD is satisfied that he has determined the score (+110 to NS in this case, apparently), he should award that score, not an artificial one.
3. I see no problem with the scorer contacting players, although technically this is part of the TD's job in determining the facts.
4. Technically, the Scorer is an assistant to the TD assigned by the TO (Law 80B2{g}) or the TD (81D). A TO (a club, for example) might write regulations covering the scorer's duties and powers, or rely on the NBO's regulations, or the laws.
5. The most pertinent sections of the White Book are 12 (in particular 12.5), 78, 80, 81-90, 131 and 148. There may be others as well.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#3
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,841
- Joined: 2007-January-18
- Gender:Male
- Location:Exeter, UK
-
Interests:EBU/EBL TD
Bridge, Cinema, Theatre, Food,
[Walking - not so much]
Posted 2012-August-04, 12:33
swanway, on 2012-August-04, 08:09, said:
1. Who has the overall authority for scoring an event. The Director or the Scorer? Sometimes the same person does both jobs so there is no problem but what happens if they are different people? Who decides if a procedural penalty is to be given and what it is?
The TD is responsible is for the scoring; only the TD can issue procedural penalties; but do not confuse procedural penalties with artificial adjusted score.
swanway, on 2012-August-04, 08:09, said:
2. This happened recently. The board was played but North did not score the result on the traveller. Do both pairs get an Average minus? E/W are also guilty of not checking the score. Should there be a procedural penalty? What would it be? In this particualr incident the Scorer knew that West always kept a score card. When contacted by 'phone he said it was +110 to North (his side). The E and W pairs were contacted but they could not remember the result.
Should the Scorer be contacting players to find out what the score was or is there a standard procedure that must be followed in cases like this?
Should the Scorer be contacting players to find out what the score was or is there a standard procedure that must be followed in cases like this?
I think that "West" should be "South".
The scorer should make appropriate efforts to determine a missing score and in the absence of any score I think AVE/AVE would do. The scorer should publish the results as provisional and inform the TD and allow the TD what to do with the missing score.
Robin
"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
#4
- Group: Members
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 2012-September-03
Posted 2012-September-03, 01:43
RMB1, on 2012-August-04, 12:33, said:
The TD is responsible is for the scoring; only the TD can issue procedural penalties; but do not confuse procedural penalties with artificial adjusted score.
I think that "West" should be "South".
The scorer should make appropriate efforts to determine a missing score and in the absence of any score I think AVE/AVE would do. The scorer should publish the results as provisional and inform the TD and allow the TD what to do with the missing score.
I think that "West" should be "South".
The scorer should make appropriate efforts to determine a missing score and in the absence of any score I think AVE/AVE would do. The scorer should publish the results as provisional and inform the TD and allow the TD what to do with the missing score.
Thanking you for the valuable information
Page 1 of 1